Since you obviously missed the explanation above in your eagerness to villify the Titan 12T:Originally Posted by =mikekoz68
You want a factory break-in for a $20 disposable (i.e. with non-replaceable brushes) motor.Originally Posted by ksb51rl
You ignore the fact that a sizeable percentage of users that take the time to treat the motor correctly have it perform at the very least adequately. Okay.
It does not seem to me that you are at all interested in an equitable discussion.
Alt-248 on the number pad = °
unsure what was intended by your reply or who it was directed at?
Last edited by kwitty; 09-24-2013 at 05:50 PM.
Brushless motors used to be so expensive.... not the case anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if TRX could put a BL motor in there at some point that would only be a bit more than the Titan..... Perhaps the days of the Brushed 550 motor are nearing the end. Off hand I don't know how much a Titan costs them to obtain, but plenty of cheapo BL motors out there that could possibly soon replace it. I wouldn't be too surprised to see all VXL systems RTR in the next year or two. Leave the NiMH battery pack out to lower the cost, and the transmitter (since many peeps already have the LINK system) and that should drop the price to near XL-5 price. Just a guestimate since we don't know the TRX cost for either ESC etc.
I would like to know the statistical cause of the brushed failures. Are the non replaceable brushes breaking off ? Is the internal fan melting ? Do the magnets break ? What exactly happens to cause failure when overheated to 250* ? How many croak from ingesting a pebble, sand etc. into the fan ? What if the motor was 550 sized with replaceable long wear brushes, sealed, no fan, with emphasis on lower stock gearing, and passive cooling fins and or fan on the motor. I only recall seeing a few pics of freshly killed Titans, and it looked like the fan broke apart and brush holders broke off. Also consider the smoking hot motor mounted to plastic in the case of Pede, Rusty, Bandit, versus mounting to metal on metal for passive cooling like the ProLine TRX tranny and the new RPM Tranny case.
Last edited by BT_EMT; 09-24-2013 at 08:43 PM.
That's what killed my Titan. It was running just fine, with cool temps, but then I hit a bump and it slowed down, and stopped.I would like to know the statistical cause of the brushed failures. Are the non replaceable brushes breaking off?
See this thread about it, with pictures. My Titan never saw over 175, and I always cleaned it.
Cool thanks Wolf ! Much more interesting to talk about an issue when we have facts and evidence ! Wow.... guess I didn't realize how little there is to those brush holders, I bet heat alone could warp it enough to not apply the original amount of pressure. Not quite sure what happened to your brushes... did it snap off or just crumble ? Or did the one side wear much faster. I know the old Trinity 550 size brushed motor was known to eat up brushes way too fast, but maybe DeWalt type motor with replaceable brushes would be the solution too, but again don't know how much TRX could contact them for. And unfortunately we never hear what the success rate is for the Titans... just the angry people in here that get random results. I had a stock 19turn RTR Losi XXX-T have a motor break on me within the first runs. Took small jump and the motor can magnet shattered, simple as that.... Pretty annoying but gave me excuse to get the famous Formula Pro SV2 Orion motor that was the go to solution for the Pedes back in the day.
IMO that is over heated for a Titan. Brushed motors can not take the same heat a brushless motor can. I have always used 160º as the max temp for a brushed motor.My Titan never saw over 175
Rusty - MERV - Pede 4x4-Alias
SPC Lipo Power
The brush snapped, it was rattling around inside the motor when I took it apart. When I tried to look at it, it crumbled. Ya, the one that snapped was more worn than the other side...Cool thanks Wolf ! Much more interesting to talk about an issue when we have facts and evidence ! Wow.... guess I didn't realize how little there is to those brush holders, I bet heat alone could warp it enough to not apply the original amount of pressure. Not quite sure what happened to your brushes... did it snap off or just crumble ? Or did the one side wear much faster.
Hmmm, good to know, thanks!IMO that is over heated for a Titan. Brushed motors can not take the same heat a brushless motor can. I have always used 160º as the max temp for a brushed motor.
Well, we have beaten this poor motor up pretty good and have learned some limits and the importance of a 'break in' and a continued maintenance program to make it survives as well as keeping heat down. I wish I could find the Traxxas specs on this motor to see where they put it for preferred temps? I guess amongst many mods that get done to most vehicles a different motor to serve the purpose of the user is inevitably going to happen..........
The orginal poster was looking for a solution to upgrade his Telluride with a replace motor that could crawl and blast through mud and trails................so far it looks like just two motors came up...........the Electrify and the Titan 550 motor possibly.
Anything else come to mind that works well with the stock ESC??
Does anyone make a thermal protect shutdown based off of motor temp?
Would this possibly be a good replacement motor, to keep stock ESC?
What broke, uh, needs upgrading now?
The esc will be able to handle it. The specs say it can handle 2s power. The adjustable timing is key to bring motor temps down in high load/ no cooling air conditions. You can replace brushes. If it has the torque (with stock gearing and 10° timing) of the titan, its a win because it should run cooler.
But... this motor will require as much, if not more maintenance and attention than the titan. Mod brushed motors need tlc. They always have.
Ya can't polish fertilizer...
From the Traxxas website on the Titan 12:
The Titan 12T 550 modified motor is designed for incredible mod-motor power output with virtually maintenance-free operation, and long-lasting performance. The Titan 12T 550 motor’s integrated cooling fan pulls cool air through the motor to keep temperatures down.
OK, this is not to resurface the 'maintenance' issue we are now aware of on the Titan but if the motor is turning more RPM's by gearing lower for it then it should not work as hard to move the vehicle and the higher RPM's should be pulling more air through it with its internal fan. Add a secondary heat sink or external fan and that should be helpful too.
Seems on the Telluride that it is more an off roader, obstacle climber and sacrificing speed can only pay dividends in durability overall of all components motor included
I think my T12 might be dying. I have had my telluride for a little over a month the car is noticeably slower. I have two 2s, 5000 lipos which I bought new with the car. I have been keeping them about half charged when storing and rarely run them until the auto voltage shut off. I took the motor out recently and blew it out and oiled the bearings. I have been trying to keep the motor <150 degrees . The car is just a lot slower. It wil barely spin the tires on dirt from a dead punch. Once its going it seems to have better speed but still slower that when new. The low end punch is gone. When it was new I could do "cyclone" dough nuts with it now it will just drive in circles. I think its time for brushless. Opinions????? Suggestions???
Mr 71cam ..... if you enjoyed your original power then yes you need to either upgrade to Brushless or switch to a stronger brushed motor from Kershaw. We kind of have 2 conversations going here... LOL One is analyzing the Titan motors and the other is what to replace it with. The no brainer upgrade for you is simply the Traxxas VXL system that the Slash/Pede/Rally 4x4 come with. There are cheaper Chinese copycats and then there are the more respectable companies like Novak, Castle, Tekin, Orion etc. How much do you want to spend ? The hot set ups use Castle ESC + 1/8 scale motors, or 4 pole 540 size, but dropping in a V8 into it will bring you upgrade land... LOL This hobby ain't cheap !
Well I was thinking about the Traxxas system for ease of converting and trying to get some more speed and low end. I just got into the RC stuff so I am not ready to upgrade everything just yet. Yeah, I know it can get expensive but I just quit drag racing real cars so this is not as bad. I looked at the Castle stuff since I saw a lot of people mentioning it in there threads. The Traxxas Vellenion system seems like it will do what I need. Right now I am just playing around in the yard and some trials, if I really get into the RC stuff then I might go crazy and start upgrading everything. Thanks for the input.
My problem was with your "caviar" comment insinuating wanting expensive parts for cheap when all I was pointing out was the motor that most everyone says is way, way better than the 12T is actually cheaper(Electrify600)
I have a question, would running one nimh batt pack, driving light on the throttle on a paved road constitute a sufficient break-in for the 12T motor?
First, I hate that the 12T titan gets such a bad rap, it's not a bad motor but heat will kill it real fast, Ive had one in my scx10 mudder for over 2 years and finally gave up the ghost and that was with pretty bad maintenance. Now with that said, in the telluride it seems to be a bad motor, I've run it with a 2s lipo and 140-150 degrees seem to be the normal with outdoor temps in 95-100 degrees, not good on the 12T. I have replaced it with a 21T on 2s and 16t pinion and that motor will run all day without breaking a sweat on that setup and at about 75-80% speed of the factory setup makes a good trail truck in my eyes. Also with this setup with a locked rear diff will make one awesome trail truck just depends on what you want out of this truck.
Is the Titan 21t a direct drop in alternative for the 12t? As in, will the capacitors or wiring need to be changed to work with the XL-5? I'm set on buying my son a Telluride for Christmas and plan on making it as reasonably bulletproof as possible before giving it to him. I'm not interested in stepping up to brushless until he's older. In anticipation for this I just ordered the STRC Slash 4x4 aluminum motor plate and motor mount and a simple motor heat sink to hopefully help deal with any heat issues. I'm also interested in getting a better brushed motor, or at least a motor with a better reputation, installed
Last edited by VMX12R; 10-07-2013 at 11:34 PM.
Ok, I'll add to this huge thread.
I have an old Titan that is two years old and it's the motor that came with my Slash. I didn't break it in, because I didn't know about it then. I've been running 19/90 gearing with it since the day I got, and it still runs great. Granted, there is almost (no joke) 1/2 an inch of shaft end play, but it still runs like an escaped convict! I like the Titan, even with the bad rap it has.
If you are going to replace your system but are limited in funding, spend more money on a good esc that can run a variety of motors. Mamba monster or hobbywing 150 will be more than this truck should ever need. Motors now are cheap compared to a few years ago you can get something adequate now and then upgrade later, and still have a spare motor just in case.
It would be nice to see traxxas put a little rubberband note on the motor with a more effective break-in solution. The one in the manual is very subjective and unfortunately many noobs don't find these forums until after they have burned up their motors, and are looking for answers. IMO their is nothing wrong with the titan for its intended purpose, it has served many well.
Don’t handicap children by making life easy
I'd call the Titan 12T adequate. It will move the truck out on pavement, but it does run pretty hot crawling down a trail(I keep forgetting my temp gun).
I followed break-in procedures on pavement, slow throttle movements are important(and braking because the motor is also doing that too) basically prevent arcking which makes carbon that doesn't conduct.
The point of it all is to get the brushes to seat on the comm, much like a piston and sleeve on a nitro motor.
It works well, but I'm not out everyday beating the snot out of it. The Titan 21T with it's torque ring does just drop right in and I did get one when I got the truck because I expected to replace it very soon. I will more that likely change it out soon to see if different is "better".
The big thing missing is the fact that break-in is not detailed in the quick-start guide, the manual has gone digital. Most shops will not educate a customer to preform break-in on an electric car because the easy sale is just to say take it out and run it. Not even bothering to make the sale of a can of motor spray to properly clean the motor out once it's broken in. This leads to unhappy customers spending more money on more Titans to kill. We all know the motor is "cheep" but to average people ~$25 is a bit much to get an indestructible truck working again.
Not that they don't beat the tar out of them. I have passed many dead Titan 12Ts through my hands. A little over half the time the comm is scorched beyond recognition, the rest are missing a brush. I've even brought a few back to life, for a short period of time.
Most of the time the trucks are filthy, my favorite was the 10 pound stampede that came with it's own lake. Traxxas really needs to externally vent their tires from the factory to be waterproof.
Sometimes they're brand new except for one good smack somewhere that broke the brush off.
Perhaps my memory is off, but didn't the Titans live longer before everything went waterproof? Didn't the yellow xl-5s come with 6 cells?
Traxxas just seems to push it's old tech way too far to be the "fastest".
That's what really irks me about the missing torque ring in the Telluride.
Why was it done?
-well we know the other Titan fits
-wouldn't one less cell be the same
-It's a trail truck, don't we need torque. "They're all coming that way" Why? to be the "fastest" again because a Helion was faster
Speaking of caviar and cheez-wiz, why did Traxxas hike the price of a cheez-wiz Stampede to put caviar telemetry components on it when that came out?
Well i am not sure, that we would all experience the same protected emotions about such as the Powerhouse into that same classification but quickly could on the Velineon.I believe it is designed, in the 4x4 collection it would be relaxing to have more assurance overall in the energy place.
To post 62... The torque ring makes the titan run hotter.
Ya can't polish fertilizer...
You got to understand a Telluride is about 5.3 lbs vs Bandit 3lbs and Rustlers 3.5 lbs. The Telluride is not a good match to the Titan motor due weight and extra differential it has to move as its 4 wheel drive.
My neighbor has 10 and 14 year old kids who have run my Telluride on a regular basis over the last month or so. We use 5800 2s LiPos and the motor does get hot, but with cool-downs between batteries and basic cleaning / maintenance I have not had one fail yet.
I'm actually in need of a new body because his horse of a German Sheppard thinks it's a chew toy. Guess I can just call the tooth marks "speed holes"...