Proline Racing Trans initial observations & images

[kwitty]

I received my Proline trans yesterday and late last night I first took it apartthen I installed it.

Quality of construction looks great, fit and finish is nice. Clear gear set cover is nice and access opening is large and useable and the retainer tether for the plug is a nice feature.

I wanted to know what was inside and just how much fluid Proline put in to 'fill' a sealed differential, once opened I saw a beautiful gear set coated in fluid, I did 'fill' it before I closed it back up so that may be an area to check before you run yours?

If you notice the slipper spring it is very thin and it takes as much as 4 full turns or so to tighten it down completely, Proline at this point offers no info that I could find on proper slipper setting. After assembly I went from tight and backed off about 5 turns and that was too much. A couple of carpet starts signaled too much slip and some minor particle shredding of disk showed in the case. Going to start at about 4 turns backed off and closely monitor it from here today.

Oversized output bearings are impressive looking and ohhhh so smooth feeling! Nice!

Notice in the internal images of gears the index marks mid-shaft for the spider gear sets, these 'criss-crosss' each other and lock position. Small spider gears float on those shafts, each gear has a metal shim washer at the end of it. ***IMPORTANT*** observation, the side case screws that bind the two halves together were fairly loose when I removed them, the gear set turned very smoothly initially. When I put thm back together I snugged them but far from overtightened and noticed now the gears seems to be very tight, i backed off the screws and everything freed up? Hmmmm, seems to be a touchy area here and I will talk to Proline regarding this concern. I am guessing tight side to side tolerances in these cases and there must be flex that puts side pressure on the drive gears, input/idler/diff ring gears.

OK, here are images that may answer questions and at least give a nice inside look at what we have to tinker with! This thread is open for discussion, I'll share anything I find as I go along and run it. Feel free to join in and ask or comment about this Proline Transmission







And I'll sneak one in of my 2nd airbrush job on my new body! LOL

[rag6]

Looks like proline gave a ton of gear contact area inside the diff. Should keep the diff oil wts low. For anyone ordering different weights of oil with the trans purchase, I would guess there would be no need to order anything over 10,000 wt.

Kwitty, how is the top gear secured to the top shaft? I would also like to know if the associated slipper and spur will work with that top shaft?

Is the ratio 2.72 like the stock trans(same # of teeth as stock)?
Is it possible to fit the top shaft and slipper into a stock gearbox?

[Greatscott]

Very nice writeup, thanks!

What motor and ESC are you using with that, and how is it holding up to the power?

Are you seeing any diffence in power delivery, cornering, and tracking with that diff? I like the diff, I have never been a fan of the Magnum's planitaty system.

Very nice job on the body!

[dcsally97]

kwitty, Hey nice to see someone else received one of these. My Rusty is noticably slower with this tranny. I was geared 26/86 with a 2s 5400mAh SPC which should've screamed, but it did not. The free wheel seems to not last as long as the stock tranny either. I have contacted Proline on a few areas as well. It is lighter and the Rusty seems to jump so much more predictable than before.

[kwitty]

Looks like proline gave a ton of gear contact area inside the diff. Should keep the diff oil wts low. For anyone ordering different weights of oil with the trans purchase, I would guess there would be no need to order anything over 10,000 wt.

Kwitty, how is the top gear secured to the top shaft? I would also like to know if the associated slipper and spur will work with that top shaft?

Is the ratio 2.72 like the stock trans(same # of teeth as stock)?
Is it possible to fit the top shaft and slipper into a stock gearbox?

I can't quite yet figure out how that top gear is on that shaft, no pin that is for sure! It almost looks like there was to be an E-clip on the groove but nothing and it felt tight when I tried to move it. Unknown attachment at the moment. Will it fit in a stock gearbox, dunno yet

I was also wondering about the AE slipper onto this shaft, I will find out soon
Yes, same ratio at 2.72.

I gave this a few runs on the concrete, excellent acceleration, only a a few times a bit of torque pull to one side but launched darn near dead on straight. Winds up fast, coasts well, handled brake input nicely, no chatter.
Went to the track today, first time the Anza chassis has been on it. I ran it hard, big air, hard landings and not a single issue with trans performance, temps were fine on my CC4600 with MMax Pro. Tinkered with the slipper a wee bit but the track is glossy dirt with dust and not much to grip on as it hadn't been worked on lately. I noticed on landings when I came down biased on one rear wheel that I still got good forward push so the diff seems to not unload easy, seems pretty nice with this 5K wt oil in it though I did fill mine

There was small shreds of the clutch disc in the cover, not a lot but some so I don't know yet what that material is or how its life expectancy is. Slipper adjustment would be nice if there was a way to index an area that will be used as the 'adjustment zone'. So far, tight and back about 3 1/2 to 4 turns is a good start.

[kwitty]

Very nice writeup, thanks!

What motor and ESC are you using with that, and how is it holding up to the power?

Are you seeing any diffence in power delivery, cornering, and tracking with that diff? I like the diff, I have never been a fan of the Magnum's planitaty system.

Very nice job on the body!

Thanks on the body and the write up......

Castle 4600kv w/Mamba Max Pro, 2s LiPo 18/86 gearing and it is quick!

I liked the way it handled and put down the power, I wish the track were better to really evaluate it but hard shiny dirt with dust on top is just plain nasty to hook on so far. I ran Calibers and they did well but have a pair of Tazers M4 to try next.
The diff was great on the street with a set of Streetfighters on, very nice in fact!

[kwitty]

kwitty, Hey nice to see someone else received one of these. My Rusty is noticably slower with this tranny. I was geared 26/86 with a 2s 5400mAh SPC which should've screamed, but it did not. The free wheel seems to not last as long as the stock tranny either. I have contacted Proline on a few areas as well. It is lighter and the Rusty seems to jump so much more predictable than before.

Hey buddy sorry to hear it slowed your Rusty. The directions say to go to 18 or 19 tooth on the Rusty but I do not know why? You might check those tranny case side screws and back them off a tad and see if you 'free wheeling' loosens up in case there is some side bind which I noticed is very possible if you tighten these up!
I'm not thrilled with the stock rear bumper fastening and motor guard but I will look into that to improve it.
It seems to have about the same noise internally at initial acceleration but seems very quiet shortly after.

I like it

[harry697]

Hey kwitty, is that main diff gear plastic? I'm guessing it's steel with some kind of black coating, but it sure looks like plastic in your pics.

[kwitty]

Hey kwitty, is that main diff gear plastic? I'm guessing it's steel with some kind of black coating, but it sure looks like plastic in your pics.

From the Proline website: Lightweight Transmission and Gears
Pro-Line’s new Performance Transmission has 20% less rotating mass and is over 20% lighter overall than the stock transmission. This allows quicker acceleration, less work for the motor and faster lap times. The bottom Diff Case Gear and Idler Gear are made out of super durable and lightweight high impact plastic, while the Top Gear is super strong Steel.

[harry697]

I'm very interested to see how the plastic gears hold up to the bashing and 3S and bigger lipos that are so popular. All my AE stuff has plastic diff and idler with steel top gear and have zero issues, but the stock Traxxas trans with the same setup is a different story. Hopefully this PL trans uses better materials and tighter tolerances than the stocker.

[kwitty]

Note an issue with mounting of Traxxas wheelie bar/bumper assembly. If you look in the very first picture here, then at the bolt that is furthest left and midway down that just barely projects through the aluminum plate. Proline gives you a spacer about 3/8 long that is to fill the void between the side of the aluminum plate where the few threads show through and it butts up against the wheelie bar mount that the bumper mounts to. However as the longer bolt passes through this spacer into the wheelie bar mount there is no threading for it to screw into as the stock set up was that the bolt went through from the outside of this mount and imbedded into the trans case half.
I think this will require a bolt about 45mm long that a nut can fasten onto to secure it properly.

Step #10 shows this in the directions but the issue is that there is no threading to secure to on the outside where it ends up.

[kwitty]

I'm very interested to see how the plastic gears hold up to the bashing and 3S and bigger lipos that are so popular. All my AE stuff has plastic diff and idler with steel top gear and have zero issues, but the stock Traxxas trans with the same setup is a different story. Hopefully this PL trans uses better materials and tighter tolerances than the stocker.

Harry, the 272 Mag Traxxas trans is all three gears steel

[harry697]

Harry, the 272 Mag Traxxas trans is all three gears steel

Yes, but that is fairly recent. Before the VXL models, the Magnum trans used plastic diff and idler gears. The original Magnum transmission even had a plastic top gear too. Back then, we were running mostly 27-turn motors and 1400SCR batteries and I would still have to replace trans gears at least a couple times a year.

[Emaxx2.0]

Yup. The Blue Eagle uses a brass top gear lol. So you have like 4 difference top gear material over the ages lol.

[kwitty]

Yes, but that is fairly recent. Before the VXL models, the Magnum trans used plastic diff and idler gears. The original Magnum transmission even had a plastic top gear too. Back then, we were running mostly 27-turn motors and 1400SCR batteries and I would still have to replace trans gears at least a couple times a year.

Seems I have a spare trans in my grab bag of accumulated goodies that has those plastic gears now that you mention it and the remnants of ball bearing slipper clutch system I think??

[kwitty]

Looks like proline gave a ton of gear contact area inside the diff. Should keep the diff oil wts low. For anyone ordering different weights of oil with the trans purchase, I would guess there would be no need to order anything over 10,000 wt.

Kwitty, how is the top gear secured to the top shaft? I would also like to know if the associated slipper and spur will work with that top shaft?

Is the ratio 2.72 like the stock trans(same # of teeth as stock)?
Is it possible to fit the top shaft and slipper into a stock gearbox?

NO Associated discs do not over this larger shaft, NO the spur gear does not either.

[harry697]

Seems I have a spare trans in my grab bag of accumulated goodies that has those plastic gears now that you mention it and the remnants of ball bearing slipper clutch system I think??

If it's a Traxxas trans, the slipper used those red plastic pegs. AE used to have 1/8" diff balls instead of the plastic pegs (6-gear transmission). Using diff balls on the old Traxxas slipper was sorta like one of those "pro secrets" back in the day. I never tried it, but many swore by it for both tune-ability and durability.

[kwitty]

If it's a Traxxas trans, the slipper used those red plastic pegs. AE used to have 1/8" diff balls instead of the plastic pegs (6-gear transmission). Using diff balls on the old Traxxas slipper was sorta like one of those "pro secrets" back in the day. I never tried it, but many swore by it for both tune-ability and durability.

I'll have to get another good look at it and share the info with you, maybe it's a classic! LOL

[harry697]

I'll have to get another good look at it and share the info with you, maybe it's a classic! LOL

If it's an old 6-gear AE box, you've got yourself an obsolete heap of parts that's worth it's weight in gold! If it's an older plastic-gear Magnum, you've got yourself an obsolete pile of parts that's worth it's weight in plastic.

[Emaxx2.0]

Harry. I don't think it was the plastic gears being a issue but more so the transmission case flexing. You have a plastic motor mount and suspension arm mount connected to the transmission case.

[kwitty]

Here is an update on an email exchanged with the engineer that designed the Proline Transmission:

This is in regards to tightening the case side screws that seemed to cause some binding issues:We have always ran our transmission case screws tight. The gears don’t run as free at first but the bearings come with grease and they will free up after some run time. Running the screws a little loose might lead to less than ideal movement.

Here is the answer on whether to fill completely or not with diff fluid on a sealed diff and this is very interesting and probably why he is an engineer and I am not LOL I always put enough diff oil to just cover the cross bones that the gears ride on. That leaves room for the last gear to get in there without spilling the oil everywhere. A little bit of air in the diff is actually a good thing because it puts less pressure on the seals and is less likely to leak when it is spinning super-fast.

I also asked about a reference point of the setting on slipper since there was nothing in their directions: You are right, we should have included the stock setting in the instructions. The stock setting is 3mm from the end of the shaft to the end of the nut or 4 ½ turns backed off from fully locked. For high traction or high power it will likely need to be tighter. The pads may release some shavings as they break in but it shouldn’t be a continual thing. If this continues, let me know.

Next observation was I thought I had a bit of play in the top bearings after my track run, there was a very slight bit of play in the output shaft, I am looking closer and will discuss with him my findings but here is an answer, pay attention if you are running this trans and deciding not to run a gear cover!:Also remember to never run the transmission without the gear cover because the bottom gear cover screw helps hold the motor plate to the Transmission.

I am very pleased with their interest to quickly and accurately answer my questions, I am one of those 'need to know' guys if you don't already know that about me LOL

Thanks Traxxas for giving me the foundation to enjoy all these other Hop Ups offered

[Alex.Eklund]

Just to add another nice feature to the Pro-Line Performance Transmission is the Removable toe-block arm mount.... easy Transmission Removal and Future tunablitiy !



I have been doing some testing running a VXL on 3s in my Stampede ! !

[Alex.Eklund]

To run a AE Spur Gear, will need to drill out to a 5mm or similar US# bit..... The smallest AE spur that can fit w/ Stock P-L Slipper plates is 81 if you want to go smaller in spur you will have to grind down the P-L slipper plates to the AE slipper plate outer diameter....Hope to do some Track testing in a Slash as well.

[rag6]

Here is an update on an email exchanged with the engineer that designed the Proline Transmission:

This is in regards to tightening the case side screws that seemed to cause some binding issues:We have always ran our transmission case screws tight. The gears don’t run as free at first but the bearings come with grease and they will free up after some run time. Running the screws a little loose might lead to less than ideal movement.

Here is the answer on whether to fill completely or not with diff fluid on a sealed diff and this is very interesting and probably why he is an engineer and I am not LOL I always put enough diff oil to just cover the cross bones that the gears ride on. That leaves room for the last gear to get in there without spilling the oil everywhere. A little bit of air in the diff is actually a good thing because it puts less pressure on the seals and is less likely to leak when it is spinning super-fast.

I also asked about a reference point of the setting on slipper since there was nothing in their directions: You are right, we should have included the stock setting in the instructions. The stock setting is 3mm from the end of the shaft to the end of the nut or 4 ½ turns backed off from fully locked. For high traction or high power it will likely need to be tighter. The pads may release some shavings as they break in but it shouldn’t be a continual thing. If this continues, let me know.

Next observation was I thought I had a bit of play in the top bearings after my track run, there was a very slight bit of play in the output shaft, I am looking closer and will discuss with him my findings but here is an answer, pay attention if you are running this trans and deciding not to run a gear cover!:Also remember to never run the transmission without the gear cover because the bottom gear cover screw helps hold the motor plate to the Transmission.

I am very pleased with their interest to quickly and accurately answer my questions, I am one of those 'need to know' guys if you don't already know that about me LOL

Thanks Traxxas for giving me the foundation to enjoy all these other Hop Ups offered

Did they ever answer why a Bandit is restricted to only an 18 tooth or 19 tooth pinion?

[kwitty]

Did they ever answer why a Bandit is restricted to only an 18 tooth or 19 tooth pinion?

Yep, just got the answer from the engineer, apparently a stock Rustler comes with a considerably different sized spur and since the only spur right now is the 86t Proline felt to keep the acceleration and performance up that the 18-19t would be the correct range.
I don't know what spur comes stock on a Rustler??

[O.G.]

Yep, just got the answer from the engineer, apparently a stock Rustler comes with a considerably different sized spur and since the only spur right now is the 86t Proline felt to keep the acceleration and performance up that the 18-19t would be the correct range.
I don't know what spur comes stock on a Rustler??

according to Traxxas, 25/83 for stock vxl, but I don't know if anything on my Rusty is stock anymore...

[kwitty]

according to Traxxas, 25/83 for stock vxl, but I don't know if anything on my Rusty is stock anymore...

You know I did some research and thought it was 25/83 or 28/83 stock. There is little difference in the rollout ratio by only going up 3 teeth and actually it gets better not worse but by a split hair? I wonder if they had some old info or wrong info on the stock spur or just felt that the gearing was more for speed than for race acceleration?
There isn't anything it will hurt in the trans by using what ever gear you want. I made a couple of passes with a 3s 18/86 gearing with my CC 4600kv and it purrrred nicely on the street!

[kwitty]

Looks like proline gave a ton of gear contact area inside the diff. Should keep the diff oil wts low. For anyone ordering different weights of oil with the trans purchase, I would guess there would be no need to order anything over 10,000 wt.

Kwitty, how is the top gear secured to the top shaft? I would also like to know if the associated slipper and spur will work with that top shaft?

Is the ratio 2.72 like the stock trans(same # of teeth as stock)?
Is it possible to fit the top shaft and slipper into a stock gearbox?

OK this is sweeeet, the top gear is actually part of the top shaft! Yes, all machined from one blank so there isn't anyway that that gear is going to come off that shaft LOL Wow, no pins to shear

[rag6]

Yep, just got the answer from the engineer, apparently a stock Rustler comes with a considerably different sized spur and since the only spur right now is the 86t Proline felt to keep the acceleration and performance up that the 18-19t would be the correct range.
I don't know what spur comes stock on a Rustler??

the bandit vxl comes with ...76/26=2.92:1
the rusty vxl comes with .....83/25=3.32:1
so...on a bandit .................86/19=4.53:1?????

What he said is way off from reality. Thats a 50% decrease in top speed on a bandit, and almost as bad for a rusty... as long as the proline uses 2.72 internal ratio that is...


EDIT: Maybe the added drag of the "tight" trans will kill the titan motors very quickly and they want to prevent it????

[kwitty]

the bandit vxl comes with ...76/26=2.92:1
the rusty vxl comes with .....83/25=3.32:1
so...on a bandit .................86/19=4.53:1?????

What he said is way off from reality. Thats a 50% decrease in top speed on a bandit, and almost as bad for a rusty... as long as the proline uses 2.72 internal ratio that is...


EDIT: Maybe the added drag of the "tight" trans will kill the titan motors very quickly and they want to prevent it????

Gotta think they just missed the call on these. I also think there is going to be a variance on just how tight those side screws are set but initially there should be no bind in the free wheeling of the trans but it is possible to create it by tightening those screws. I also believe from my experience that there is a 'break in' on the trans then perhaps the tightness of the screws should be re-evaluated to set to optimum. Yes maybe this trans may not be for the unexperienced individuals but then again racing equipment often requires a more advanced approach.
I don't think from what I have been told and learned that there is any reason not to run the stock gearing in the Rusty but I think the Bandit may benefit from some tweaking

I guess if the side case tolerances were fairly loose then tightening the screws would have no effect on bind. I have found the internal gear sets to not be sloppy at all. There is movement from side to side in the diff carrier within those large outward bearings so no bind comes from there, I don't find any 'in out' play on the top shaft so no doubt that shaft and idler are in a tighter tolerance so I believe that is the area that can be put into a bind by the screws but that may continue to change with break in. Just my findings so far.................

[Wolfslash16]

OK this is sweeeet, the top gear is actually part of the top shaft! Yes, all machined from one blank so there isn't anyway that that gear is going to come off that shaft LOL Wow, no pins to shear

Wow, really? They should do that with all of the gears! (Or do all of the gears come like that???)

[harry697]

Maybe I missed the answer to this, but is there anything that is physically limiting you to an 18-19 pinion? Or is it just what they're recommending to use?

[cunawarit]

Mmmm... It is looking like right now they shouldn't really be recommending it as an upgrade for the Rustler or Bandit.

From the general noise that Proline have been making about the tranny it is obvious that they believe in the product, I hope they listen to comments like these and develop it as time goes on.

If they sort out the gearing issue I would probably get one.

[cunawarit]

Maybe I missed the answer to this, but is there anything that is physically limiting you to an 18-19 pinion? Or is it just what they're recommending to use?

From what was said at the Bandit/Rustler forum the pinion rubs the cover when a larger pinion is used.

Makes me wonder if you can just cut a slot on the cover to fix this...

[harry697]

From what was said at the Bandit/Rustler forum the pinion rubs the cover when a larger pinion is used.

Makes me wonder if you can just cut a slot on the cover to fix this...

If that's the case, why wouldn't they just manufacture a gear cover that fit correctly before releasing the trans and telling you that you only have two options for a pinion? Seems that the more exposure this trans gets, the more it seems like a Friday night special. It's a shame because the trans has a ton of potential, but it seems like it just has a bunch of minor issues that I honestly have a hard time justifying why they were overlooked.

[rag6]

Especially at that price... What whas the hurry to release it? Not like its Christmas or anything...
By the way proline said to use the traxxas idler (LOLOL!) if you need a replacement before replacements are avail. Why would they even say that if their plastic is so durable. I really am unimpressed as to the way this is turning out. Only because of the huge price... it should be perfect with no issues period.

I am glad I stayed away from the initial release. I may get one down the road, but not till they fix all of their problems... I aint no sucker Proline!

[rag6]

...Then their telling you that the associated and losi spurs can be used with the pl slipper plates, but you have to drill the spur sand the plates... argh! Why not just make it fit the rest of the stuff that the rest of the racing world uses darnit! spluutch!-
Head explodes-
Rant over-
Dropped ball bouncing down Proline Blvd...

[kwitty]

If that's the case, why wouldn't they just manufacture a gear cover that fit correctly before releasing the trans and telling you that you only have two options for a pinion? Seems that the more exposure this trans gets, the more it seems like a Friday night special. It's a shame because the trans has a ton of potential, but it seems like it just has a bunch of minor issues that I honestly have a hard time justifying why they were overlooked.

The suggested pinion size was to promote correct acceleration with the up-sized 86t spur.

That wouldn't make sense on a space restriction as the pinion is in the exact same location on any vehicle because it is indexed by the trans not the vehicle?? I think the info that someone suggested on the rub is wrong, I spoke to the engineer who designed the trans and that was not the answer given and that does not make sense as it would be the same transmission and has nothing to do with what vehicle it is put in?

I'm not here sticking up for Proline or complaining about them either, I know anything high perfromance or racing I have built or worked on usually has tight exact tolerances to conform to for proper break in or proper running and often requires a very specific torqing of screws or bolts. Since there is no gasket material between the two halves I can understand the effects of pulling the screws down too tight.

Current issues at hand seem to be related to how tight it too tight and rear bumper mounting. I think the gearing isssue will prove itself out. I think there is more than sufficient room for 26t count spur.

[bigdodge44150]

I really like the Ideal of the arm mounts being removable. Alot of the aluminum trans already have this feature though. I like the looks of the slipper clutch too. But I dont think this trans would be near the top of my want list plastic idler gear and if you cant tighten the bolts down without it binding something is off I would think. Also I like the washer mod on the factory diff and you can not do that to this one.

[kwitty]

I really like the Ideal of the arm mounts being removable. Alot of the aluminum trans already have this feature though. I like the looks of the slipper clutch too. But I dont think this trans would be near the top of my want list plastic idler gear and if you cant tighten the bolts down without it binding something is off I would think. Also I like the washer mod on the factory diff and you can not do that to this one.

Valid point on the aluminum cases, but...........you have 45-$65 in the case alone so adding in upgraded slipper and only choice of sealed diff is FLM with stock Traxxas gear set. The size and cut of the Proline gears is impressive, at the end of each smaller spider gear is a shim washer, so I am thinking there may be tuning internally available.
If you tighten the factory cases tight and you still have side to side movement in the drive gears then shim them you are likely at some point to also reach a binding when you tighten the screws too much I would think.

By the way, I also have a stock Slash trans and diff and a stock set of cases with FLM diff and Associated slipper set up but then again I am at the mercy of the top shaft pin breakage issue and the stock very small gears and the smaller output bearings and more internal weight.

Always a plus minus evaluation for each of us. I firmly believe that Proline will support this transmission and continue to improve as needed, if it internally is strong and durable and tuneable and the smaller isssues are external then we got a great foundation. It's only the beginning and all new to learn