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  1. #1
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    motor turn answer from castel

    Thomas from castle creations,emailed me to say there 4 pole motor's are all one turn,and not rated like other motors.
    OK,it gets better,because they are 4 pole motors,the stock vxl will not work with them.
    So explain this,I spent about one and a half hours today,playing with my 4 pole 3800kv castle motor,being controlled by a traxxas vxl-s,because I wanted to be sure the over tray worked well enough to keep things dry.I don't think even they know what there talking about?AS in the past I got two different answers from traxxas,one teck said it wouldn't work,one said it would.
    Well friends,I know my vxl will work with the 4 pole motor,but with all the talk about it,tomorrow ,i think i will take my older vxl-s,and see if it too will run the 4 pole?
    I'm really starting to believe something in the vxl-3 has been changed without us being told.AS I have seen my new(two week old) vxl,does in fact has a sticker on the battery wires,saying unplug to turn off.
    But the other(three month old)one doesn't.
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  2. #2
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    While I am no means a expert in the new Brushless Motors of today. I think alot has changed and is changing rapidly in the motors we use today.

    I have read some misc post on can you run a castle motor with a VXL Speedcontrol. I think you can with the older motors and non sensored motors. From what i have read Castle has come out with new motors that are sensored. Which typicaly wont work with a traditional speed control. or if they do dont work properly. Especially at start up or low rpm speeds. So although your castle works with the VXL it most likely working to its fullest potential. I would imagine it may glitch at take off if is a sensored motor.

    I was once told that some VXL ESC had a port to run sensored motors. Not sure if thats true or not


    In regards to What is the Turn Rating of Castle Motors. I believe its safe to say that Brushless Motors dont have "Turns" in the traditional sense like Brushed Motors to. That is why they are rated in KV. Which over all "TURNS" and "KV" ratings all attempt to show what the RPM of a give Motor. So all if it is more or less guidelines these day. Would be nice to see a Standard Set in which motors could be tested with a SET Voltage and Amperage. Measure RPM and Torque Curve of a Motor.

    At our track most of are classes have a Motor Limit. Which Motor Specs are taken into consideration as is REAL WORLD Performance of the various motors on the Track.
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  3. #3
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    Who knows anymore?like you my knowledge of these new motors is limited,but to say they have one turn,and then say they wont work with the vxl,after I spent the day doing it.
    Oh,the vxl does have a port for censored motors,thou my castle is not.
    And than call traxxas,who I have a lot of faith in,and get two different answers.
    Well like I said tomorrow will tell,I will take my older vxl and see if it runs my 4 pole,and yes they are a bit jumpy at the start,but that I can under stand,the sensor is to tell the esc where the everything is set to cause a smooth running motor at low rpm's.
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  4. #4
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. rag6's Avatar
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    Brushless motors do have turns. The wires are still wrapped, and the number of wraps determine the turns. If a castle motor was only 1 turn, that 20 feet(just guessing) of wire in the motor would make the motor at least 10 ft long.

    Are you able to shoot a vid of it working and actually driving around with the 4 pole? My vxl will not power my 4600 4pole.
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  5. #5
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    I can try with my phone,there twitchy taking off,but once moving it seems fine,I would like to know what Thomas means by there motors are all one turn?
    I haven yet tried the 4 pole with the other one of my vxl-3,But I will try to get you a video,but don't forget,it took me two weeks to figure out how to post a pic.
    But I will really try so every one can see um not crazy.
    I really think they changed something inside the unit,but when it comes to electricity,I know how to plug it in,and unplug it,and now I'm not 100% sure of the unplugging part.
    And if it helps,they also said my vxl wouldn't run the 3800 4 pole,wouldn't have questioned it if i ha den just done it.
    I'll do my best to get you that vid rag6.
    I wonder if i can forward the email they sent me,to you?
    Quote Originally Posted by rag6 View Post
    Brushless motors do have turns. The wires are still wrapped, and the number of wraps determine the turns. If a castle motor was only 1 turn, that 20 feet(just guessing) of wire in the motor would make the motor at least 10 ft long.

    Are you able to shoot a vid of it working and actually driving around with the 4 pole? My vxl will not power my 4600 4pole.
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  6. #6
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. rag6's Avatar
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    Dont worry about the email. I believe they said that. My vxl w/4600 4pole coggs extremely anything under 10-15 mph. I basically had to throw it down the straightaway and at the hairpin at the end it would cog almost all the way down the next straight. It was useless at the track. I want to see the vid, because if I was in a wide open area I probably could have kept it pumping if I did not have to slow down too much, or go wot from lower speeds and want to see if what you experience is the same as my attempts. My vxl has the sensor port, and running a novak 13.5 sensored (2pole) through it resulted in cogging so bad that it could not be run at all, trying every combo of motor wire hookups.
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  7. #7
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    I'll do my best for ya.
    I know what you mean,I wasn't on a track,If I were it would have been a pain in the butt.
    Its really best for speed runs,I didn't have to push it,but it probably would have helped now that you mentioned it.
    Last edited by billy-bones; 12-28-2012 at 03:44 PM.
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  8. #8
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rag6 View Post
    My vxl has the sensor port, and running a novak 13.5 sensored (2pole) through it resulted in cogging so bad that it could not be run at all, trying every combo of motor wire hookups.
    I've never tried running a sensored motor on any of my VXL esc's, but have read several posts over the years on this forum from people who have and claim it worked great. I have, however, witnessed Novak motors not liking to play nice with other manufacturer's esc's. Don't know why, but seen it happen on more than a few occasions. Have you ever tried a different brand sensored motor with yours?

    As for the responses from Castle, I'm far from an expert on brushless motors, but I can't understand how they could all be one turn. Oh, and I have a feeling by "one turn" he may have meant all their motors are the same number of turns. Still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but if he really meant the motor is physically one turn, there wouldn't be very much wire inside the motor.

    Like I said in the discussion last week, and just like rag6 mentioned above, brushless motors still have a turn rating by some means. The stators are wrapped with copper wire, just like a brushed arm is. And the only thing that is different between, let's say, a Novak Ballistic 17.5 and a 10.5 is the stator. The copper wire windings still seem to be the thing that designates how "hot" a motor is.

  9. #9
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. rag6's Avatar
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    I was trying to run my vxl on the novak 13.5 in my taxi sprint pan car, but it was useless. Threw an mmp in and it worked fine, although a tekin rs was much smoother with that particular motor. I misunderstood the rules of the upstart "spec" class and found myself running against CW sprint cars and had no chance to keep up. Sold it like a hot potato. Never tried another sensored motor with the vxl.
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  10. #10
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    Got me,that's what the email said.But i never tried a censored motor on a vxl either,and it was very twitchy at start.
    It would be near impossible to run on a short coarse.
    As much as i like castle,and their adjustments,they probably are the or one of the very best systems out there.
    But really imo,for a all around fun truck,powerful easy to use waterproof.The velienon system is really hard to beat for the buck.
    Their durability has been proven,time after time,Unless you really want to get into some serious racing,imo it's a hard system to beat.
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  11. #11
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    Billy.. I'm surprised at that answer from Castle as I've asked them several times and always got the same answer. We don't use winds, only rate motors in kv. If you open up a brushless motor you will see many winds of the wire on the can as the armature is just a magnet on a shaft.. I would hate to think the tech was being sarcastic, joking or worse yet.. really didn't know the answer.. Your other question about the 4 pole running on a velineon.. don't see why it wouldn't.. but I "think" they have to be able to handle the timing of the motor which is twice that of a 2 pole.. maybe the early ones can't but the new ones shouldn't have a problem.. I don't run Traxxas VXL stuff so I can't help you there.
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  12. #12
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    Well I have yet to try my older vxl with the four pole.And it does seem strange that the new one,Indeed has a sticker on the battery plug wires saying,Unplug esc to turn off,when the older(by three months max)has no such sticker.That's not to say it didn't come off at sometime in the summer,but I never saw it.Now harry697 had a good point,maybe their trying to say,all their motors have the same turns,and they use the kv rating with magnetic strength to come up with the #?My self Gentlemen am completely confused.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by billy-bones View Post
    Well I have yet to try my older vxl with the four pole.And it does seem strange that the new one,Indeed has a sticker on the battery plug wires saying,Unplug esc to turn off,when the older(by three months max)has no such sticker.That's not to say it didn't come off at sometime in the summer,but I never saw it.Now harry697 had a good point,maybe their trying to say,all their motors have the same turns,and they use the kv rating with magnetic strength to come up with the #?My self Gentlemen am completely confused.
    Couldn't agree more... I don't know anything about Traxxas esc's as I don't use them... It really doesn't matter much what the turns are with the Motors as pretty much everyone rates them in KV anyway... as they should be..For you airplane and Heli guys.. can you imagine trying to figure out head speed for helicopters or prop speed for airplanes based on number of turns? why should the ground rc be different!
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  14. #14
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cenracer1 View Post
    Couldn't agree more... I don't know anything about Traxxas esc's as I don't use them... It really doesn't matter much what the turns are with the Motors as pretty much everyone rates them in KV anyway... as they should be..For you airplane and Heli guys.. can you imagine trying to figure out head speed for helicopters or prop speed for airplanes based on number of turns? why should the ground rc be different!
    Totally with you on this. Am I correct that Kv=RPM per volt? That seems to be an accurate way of rating motors. But now I'm gonna go around in a complete circle again.

    Wouldn't the deciding factor on how many RPM's a motor produces with one volt applied to it be the number of copper windings in the can? If so, turns would seem to still be a relevant number. Perhaps Kv would have been the proper way to rate motors all along.

    Also, couldn't you apply the same Kv equation to a brushed motor? Like a 27-turn motor running on one volt would turn "x" amount of RPM and a 12-turn motor with one volt would turn "y" amount of RPM.

    Not trying to re-invent the wheel here. Just want to know if my thought process makes any sense. Just seems to me that all electric motors for R/C applications rely on the copper windings, or perhaps you could call it a coil, to determine the capable RPM output of the motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by harry697 View Post
    Totally with you on this. Am I correct that Kv=RPM per volt? That seems to be an accurate way of rating motors. But now I'm gonna go around in a complete circle again.

    Wouldn't the deciding factor on how many RPM's a motor produces with one volt applied to it be the number of copper windings in the can? If so, turns would seem to still be a relevant number. Perhaps Kv would have been the proper way to rate motors all along.

    Also, couldn't you apply the same Kv equation to a brushed motor? Like a 27-turn motor running on one volt would turn "x" amount of RPM and a 12-turn motor with one volt would turn "y" amount of RPM.

    Not trying to re-invent the wheel here. Just want to know if my thought process makes any sense. Just seems to me that all electric motors for R/C applications rely on the copper windings, or perhaps you could call it a coil, to determine the capable RPM output of the motor.
    What you are saying is correct and your right, there is no reason to re invent the wheel... The biggest issue was that they used to use winds as a way of guaging motor speed instead of RPM's (KV) which is a much more accurate way of telling. I took apart an unused 5700 KV castle motor last night and there were lots of windings in the can.. much more than any brushed motor I've seen.. the difference I think is on the magnets on the armature.. I've seen some manufacturers offer different armatures (rotors) that will fit in their cans.. so one would think that the difference is in the magnets.. Right?
    I guess my originally coming from an airplane/heli background, I never really used turns as a guage of performance.. I only know rpm's and motor size.. the bigger the can the more torque... anyone remember what 380, 400, 600 and 700 mean?
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  16. #16
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cenracer1 View Post
    the difference I think is on the magnets on the armature.. I've seen some manufacturers offer different armatures (rotors) that will fit in their cans.. so one would think that the difference is in the magnets.. Right?
    From what I've gathered, the rotors are classed by millimeters. I'm guessing that's the diameter of the magnets? Or maybe length of the magnet? I haven't had too much experience with optional rotors, but did have an LRP X-12 17.5 that came with an optional 13.5mm rotor (I think the stock one was 13mm) and it was supposed to provide more torque. IMO it was a minimal difference. It still felt like a normal 17.5 to me. Probably capable of running one tooth higher, but the difference for me was minimal. It also seems that the optional rotor will fit any of the motors in the X-12 line-up, so I don't think the rotor is what affects the "turn" or "Kv" of the motor. Sorta makes sense in reference to can size. A larger can would be able to use a larger diameter or longer rotor, resulting in higher torque. Or I could just be completely off course too.

    I would be interested in seeing the difference between the can of the 5700kv motor compared to a 4600kv or any other size they offer. Something tells me there should be an obvious difference between them, contrary to what the guy at Castle claimed.

    This is starting to make my head hurt.
    Last edited by harry697; 12-29-2012 at 11:52 AM.

  17. #17
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    I can take apart my 5700 2 and 4 pole motors as well as the 4600 2 pole and my 3800 4 pole and see the difference, but honestly they work so well I don't want to mess with them...
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    So i am a little confused. Is a lower KV number better or worse. assume the Mamba 2200 is a much better motor than the Velineon 3500

  19. #19
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squamishscepter View Post
    So i am a little confused. Is a lower KV number better or worse. assume the Mamba 2200 is a much better motor than the Velineon 3500
    IIRC, the Mamba 2200kv is a 1/8th scale motor? If so, it's like comparing apples to oranges. Basically, if comparing two 540 motors, the one with the higher kv rating will produce more RPM with the same voltage. Also, higher kv motors are often limited to 2S for this reason.

  20. #20
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. billy-bones's Avatar
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    All and all i think,for the price the velienon is a darn good set up.Maybe not the best,but far from the worst.
    In fact for the price,and ease of use,for the new rcer,its above average.
    And like harry said,you cant compare a small block,to a big block.
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  21. #21
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. rag6's Avatar
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    What bugs me is that at my track, the 13.5 and 17.5 classes must be run with sensored motors. All motors should be rated in KV...
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  22. #22
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rag6 View Post
    What bugs me is that at my track, the 13.5 and 17.5 classes must be run with sensored motors. All motors should be rated in KV...
    Same here, but I prefer it that way. I've never had a non-sensored motor that I didn't hate on the track. I raced with the Velineon system in my SRT and T4 and also raced electric 1/8th with the MMM. They can be so unpredictable, especially in tight sections or rhythm sections. I bought my MMM combo brand new and sold it after two race days in my RC8Be. Bought a Tekin RX8 combo and never looked back. So much more precise!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rag6 View Post
    What bugs me is that at my track, the 13.5 and 17.5 classes must be run with sensored motors. All motors should be rated in KV...
    You mean because the turns are as meaningless as treadwear ratings, and one company's 17.5 is 2200kv, and another's is 1800kv? There really does need to be an established standard.

  24. #24
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. harry697's Avatar
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    I just read something interesting that toches on the whole "turn" rating of brushless motors. Apparently the turn rating of brushless motors is exactly the same as that of brushed motors. The wire is just wrapped around the stator instead of the arm.

    “The three slotted stator must be wound with 17.5 turns of 2 strands of a maximum diameter of 20AWG or 0.813 mm per slot.

    So, a 17.5 brushless motor should be equivalent to a 17x2 brushed motor according to ROAR.

    http://www.roarracing.com/?p=1842



    Aside from that, this new ruling by ROAR ought to be interesting, especially in the on road scene.

  25. #25
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. rag6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Isotope View Post
    You mean because the turns are as meaningless as treadwear ratings, and one company's 17.5 is 2200kv, and another's is 1800kv? There really does need to be an established standard.
    Yes. I have seen kv ratings as high as 2500 for a 17.5, which is kind of silly.
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