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  1. #1
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    To the people who thought a solid axle is everything!

    for a while i have seen and head alot of people on here and other forms saying how the summit could not be taken sersiouly when it came to rock crawling becoz it did not have a soild axle. and how it needs a soild axle ETC.....buh buh. See Traxxas engineers are so good at what they do. see in the real world of rock crawling you may need a soild axle on a 1:1 truck cuz you are pushing out big HP. but this is not a 1:1 car so a CVD rear end is better than a soild axle why well on a soild axle when you are articulaing the tire going over the object it can only go so high until the oppestie tire on the other end starts to pick up off the ground, or tilt on CVD rear end like the summit you can be a full articulation all wheel are on the ground and the diffs do not hang so you can not drag them. RCCA stated and i quote( the summit uses the proven revo style suspension system when approaching and obstacle the high riding suspension offers Greather ground clearance than a SOILD AXLE the summit's diffs do not hand lower than than the wheel hubs so the summit does not give up any ground clearance to a SOILD AXLE DESIGN.) so you can see the the traxxas people know what they are doing and not to worry it will be the best out there. so no more hating on the company that knows more than you. lol God that feels good to get that out. David
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  2. #2
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    Oh boy.... here we go again...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by egnix
    Oh boy.... here we go again...
    LOL
    not again i just know people are going to be very surpise when the summit runs or rock craws all over these so call decade crawers.
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  4. #4
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    Good point. If the solid axle was better, Traxxas would have incorporated them for the Summit.

    I would bet that there are solid axle prototype Summits sitting on a shelf somewhere inside the Traxxas R&D complex...

  5. #5
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    Enough talk, lets see some action.

    Goto RCCrawler.com, find people in your area with a super-class crawlers, set up a course, and go toe-to-toe. Better yet, enter it in a crawling comp. Until this happens, its just talk and the debate will continue.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by nu64man
    Good point. If the solid axle was better, Traxxas would have incorporated them for the Summit.

    I would bet that there are solid axle prototype Summits sitting on a shelf somewhere inside the Traxxas R&D complex...
    they enter view the guy who was the head to the summit project and they ask him if why not a soild axle and traxxas said that its not there style and it would not be best for the summit.

    traxxas even said that the summit would hang with the big boys in the crawer world and its not even a purpose built crawer.
    My T-maxx eats nitro and poops Savages
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  7. #7
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    It is not a purpose built crawler, and will not be able to compete with them, but for someone who wants to bash, but do a little crawling too, this is the truck.
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  8. #8
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Greatscott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidrx794
    they enter view the guy who was the head to the summit project and they ask him if why not a soild axle and traxxas said that its not there style and it would not be best for the summit.

    traxxas even said that the summit would hang with the big boys in the crawer world and its not even a purpose built crawer.
    Oh come now. Look at how Traxxas makes its RCs. Only now and then is something totally new put out, most of the time they borrow from existing trucks for their new designs. T-Maxx really set off the monster revolution, from that you got the S-Maxx, and the E-Maxx. Look at the all of the trucks that are based around the 272 tranny. And now, you have the Revo-line of trucks. Traxxas makes one big enovation every now and then, then you see a string of RCs that follow it. THAT IS WHY THEY DIDN'T GO WITH A SOLID AXEL. It is brilliant from a business sense, it keeps R&D costs down, retooling and production costs are kept down, consumer prices are kept down, and the LHS can keep a reasonable stock of repair parts. Plus, it is easier for aftermarket parts makers to support the RCs.

    Now, go head-to-head with a solid axel crawler and lets see which suspension system is better. I think if someone modified a S-Revo (the Summit name is dumb, it is a Revo) with rear steer and a dig, it could give solid axel crawlers a run for their money...
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatscott
    Oh come now. Look at how Traxxas makes its RCs. Only now and then is something totally new put out, most of the time they borrow from existing trucks for their new designs. T-Maxx really set off the monster revolution, from that you got the S-Maxx, and the E-Maxx. Look at the all of the trucks that are based around the 272 tranny. And now, you have the Revo-line of trucks. Traxxas makes one big enovation every now and then, then you see a string of RCs that follow it. THAT IS WHY THEY DIDN'T GO WITH A SOLID AXEL. It is brilliant from a business sense, it keeps R&D costs down, retooling and production costs are kept down, consumer prices are kept down, and the LHS can keep a reasonable stock of repair parts. Plus, it is easier for aftermarket parts makers to support the RCs.

    Now, go head-to-head with a solid axel crawler and lets see which suspension system is better. I think if someone modified a S-Revo (the Summit name is dumb, it is a Revo) with rear steer and a dig, it could give solid axel crawlers a run for their money...
    I know I know some people are going to be a little shore when they see that a soild axle is not the best ever. So traxxas once in awhile comes out with some enovation every now and then uh ok what about water proof elec trucks and the T-lock diff yea lets see a comp crawer do that oh yea they cant lol. everybody goes to the norm but traxxas goes above and beyond.
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  10. #10
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    And they did go with a soild axle cuz it would hidder its rock crawing performance.
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  11. #11
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    even RCCA said that the revo CVD rear end had grater Ground cleance than a soild axle setup and you can look it up traxxas knows what they are doing
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidrx794
    I know I know some people are going to be a little shore when they see that a soild axle is not the best ever. So traxxas once in awhile comes out with some enovation every now and then uh ok what about water proof elec trucks and the T-lock diff yea lets see a comp crawer do that oh yea they cant lol. everybody goes to the norm but traxxas goes above and beyond.
    Actually i did see a crawler in an rc car action magazine that had locking diffs but you had to buy a kit to make them remote locking.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidrx794
    And they did go with a soild axle cuz it would hidder its rock crawing performance.
    yea it might hidder it alright im just messing around but seriously traxxas knows what there doin im sure it will be fine im really worried about one thing that i know is a huge problem for the summit.................. NOT enough videos!!!!!! i need to see some more!
    huked awn fonics werkeded 4 mee

  14. #14
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    i know what you mean
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  15. #15
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    Its all talk until you put them head-to-head...
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidrx794
    I know I know some people are going to be a little shore when they see that a soild axle is not the best ever. So traxxas once in awhile comes out with some enovation every now and then uh ok what about water proof elec trucks and the T-lock diff yea lets see a comp crawer do that oh yea they cant lol. everybody goes to the norm but traxxas goes above and beyond.

    hate to break your little bubble but the t-lock diff was done way before the revo. venom made a crawler with a transmiter controled diff but on the venom can lock the front or just the rear or both depending on what you need. i love traxxas to death but not everything they do is orginal. some people just have to realize there is more to the rc world then just traxxas. traxxas is a great company but they are slow to make a totally new design.

  17. #17
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    They didn't go SA to save time and money on design and manufacturing new products. They learned a bit from Henry Ford about derivative parts and they are smart to do it.

    The advantage of a SA is not the ground clearance by any stretch of the imagination. The secret lies in how the tires contact the ground under suspension articulation. Since they pivot in a SA truck, the tire can maintain a large portion of the contact patch intact. An independently suspended truck when articulated moves the wheels up and down vertically without much camber change, so the truck often rides on the very edge of the tire. Therefore, it won't hang with purpose built rock crawlers, don't waste your figurative breath.


    Quote Originally Posted by streetracero1
    hate to break your little bubble but the t-lock diff was done way before the revo. venom made a crawler with a transmiter controled diff but on the venom can lock the front or just the rear or both depending on what you need. i love traxxas to death but not everything they do is orginal. some people just have to realize there is more to the rc world then just traxxas. traxxas is a great company but they are slow to make a totally new design.
    I'm 90% sure the Venom Creeper did not come before the Summit. If it did, it was very, VERY, shortly before the Summit was released. If that's the case, then the t-lock diffs had already been designed for a while before word of the Creeper ever left Venom HQ.
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  18. #18
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    If the summit did have solid axles, it would lose all high speed handling, ground clearance, and smooth ride that the revo is known for. It will be a great truck, but was never intended for comp crawling.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustlerRacer16
    I'm 90% sure the Venom Creeper did not come before the Summit. If it did, it was very, VERY, shortly before the Summit was released. If that's the case, then the t-lock diffs had already been designed for a while before word of the Creeper ever left Venom HQ.
    The creeper has been on shelves for around a month now, and venom announced quite a long time ago on rcc that it had remote locking diffs. There both patent pending. No one will ever know who came up with the idea first. But venom obviously got it on the shelves first.

    To the OP
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  20. #20
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    The summit is a basher. Not a crawler.

  21. #21
    RC Turnbuckle Jr. Greatscott's Avatar
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    David, I sent you a PM.

    Easy with the retorts guys...
    Last edited by Greatscott; 02-03-2009 at 01:49 PM.
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  22. #22
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    This thread is on a short leash and will be closed if I have to come back to clean it up again.

  23. #23
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    I love Traxxas....

    But Solid Axles just look cool. It is a flat out tie for my favorite truck, E-Revo and TXT-1...
    If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with!!!

  24. #24
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    There is a great diagram i saw once that explained how both suspension work in a crawling situation, I've been trying to find it but am not having any luck yet. But basically is states that on an indy truck while the diff clearance is greater at rest and the tires sit flat, when articulated the diff on a solid axle truck moves up with the wheel and the tire maintains a flat traction patch in relation to the rock its riding on, Where as a Indy suspension truck the wheel rises the diff remains level to the ground and actually sits lower than its SA counterpart. and as the tire raises the tire maintains its contact patch parallel to the chassis and the tire rides along its edge on the incline that it is resting on greatly reducing its contact patch.

    I'll keep looking for the diagram

  25. #25
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    personally i think a purpose built crawler will do a lot better on very steep inclines but over large rocks etc. i think the summit will shine. But only time will tell.
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  26. #26
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    Bring it out to a comp. I would love to see how well it does against purpose built rigs.

    Fun basher it is. World class crawler I think not.
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  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankyRizzo
    Bring it out to a comp. I would love to see how well it does against purpose built rigs.

    Fun basher it is. World class crawler I think not.
    X2 I think the only true test is a skilled driver driving both over a normal comp course.

  28. #28
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    i think it will give the crawler's a run for there money
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  29. #29
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    I have a friend who is a great crawler driver. I'll have him pit my Summit against one of his Supers.

  30. #30
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    Couple things. All this debate about whether the Summit can hang with a dedicated rock crawler. Why not do a split contest. A crawl, and a race. Average out the scores. Winner, Summit. Also, the thing about solid axles, is that as one side articulates up, the other side is effectively forced down to compensate.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by StamJato
    Also, the thing about solid axles, is that as one side articulates up, the other side is effectively forced down to compensate.
    Nope. You have to remember you're fulcrum point isn't the the pumpkin its the links on the outside edges of you're axle. you're low side tire will move fractionally up or down in relation to the pivot point of the lower suspension link. on a droop setup this is reinforced by the spring in the shock pulling the axle back up into the chassis.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by egnix
    I have a friend who is a great crawler driver. I'll have him pit my Summit against one of his Supers.
    post video please

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by StamJato
    Couple things. All this debate about whether the Summit can hang with a dedicated rock crawler. Why not do a split contest. A crawl, and a race. Average out the scores. Winner, Summit. Also, the thing about solid axles, is that as one side articulates up, the other side is effectively forced down to compensate.
    I see what you mean. ive seen comp crawlers and ive been to moab and i think the summit as what it takes to be a force. no it will not hang with a rig that has all wheel stering and extend chassis. no im not naive person who thinks traxxas is every thing like someone did state before hand. i do know my stuff just like all of you on here. and Slobin3d you make a very interesting point and i hope you do find what you are looking for. cuz if my thinking is off then it is noproblem ill accepted it, i love learning about this stuff. just in my thought processes the summit or revo rear end seems to make more sense and i just can see why people are so stuck on soild axles but maybe im looking at things in a narrrow Perspective?
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  34. #34
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    So in real 1:1 crawling we can look forward to a move to independent suspension??

    Sweeeeeet!
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  35. #35
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    I guess I'm thinking of a leaf spring setup like on a pickup. And if you're talking about something that's mine, the correct word is YOUR. You're is short for you are. Your is posessive.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankyRizzo
    So in real 1:1 crawling we can look forward to a move to independent suspension??

    Sweeeeeet!
    Honestly, is this necessary? I think not...


    Nice....
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  37. #37
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    Sorry. Couldn't help myself.
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  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by StamJato
    I guess I'm thinking of a leaf spring setup like on a pickup. And if you're talking about something that's mine, the correct word is YOUR. You're is short for you are. Your is posessive.
    yup you are correct I used the incorrect form of the word, although the point is still valid

  39. #39
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    To me I think traxxas went with Independant suspension for two reasons. One being high speed handling and the other being to use as many pre-existing parts as possible.
    I think they made the right choice and have the best suspension for the summit, for bashing, jumping and some crawling.

    I could not help myself to draw an image to show a situation often found in crawling, where the front axles are on a slope that is the opposite angle to the slope the rear axles are on.
    I want a summit, but it won't replace my ax10.

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  40. #40
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    cut and paste from someone smarter than me

    Quote Originally Posted by Someone smarter than me
    Independent versus Solid Axles

    The debate between Independent suspension and solid axles is a holy war that has raged for years. The truth of the matter is that each design has properties that are both good and bad for different things. For rock crawling, the solid axle offers so many advantages that it's barely a question; very few serious rock rigs even consider using independent suspensions.
    Independent Suspension

    There are a few ways to do it, but the basic idea of an independent suspension is to make each wheel move up and down separately from any of the others. This reduces the amount of motion in the suspension, which contributes to a more comfortable ride, and helps improve traction on relatively flat surfaces at high speed.
    Solid Axles

    A solid axle is exactly what it says; a single, inflexible housing that extends from one wheel to the other. If one wheel goes up, the one on the other side goes down. While this can make the ride a little more bumpy on the street, it helps get traction at low speeds by improving the chances your tires are touching. Almost more importantly, a solid axle has fewer moving parts and almost always has a stronger, less exposed design. In short, a solid axle has fewer potential points of failure.
    Suspension Travel

    To make the comparison, let's consider my solid-axle YJ and a fully independent Hummer (H1). The course includes a large boulder, about twenty inches tall, located on the side of the trail and narrow enough that only one tire will ever be on the boulder at a time. This is a common thing on many trails, so it's perfect for our example.
    In our example, our Hummer drives up until the front passenger side tire is on the rock. The ground beneath all three other tires is level, however, because the front tire is on the rock, the vehicle chassis is no longer parallel to the ground. The rock on the passenger side is compressing the suspension, as well as lifting the chassis. On the driver's side, the increased weight because of the angle is causing some compression on that side as well, which actually increases the angle between the chassis and the ground. In the rear of the vehicle, the angle is also compressing the driver's side suspension, but there's no rock to push up on the passenger side. Because there's no force pushing either up or down on the passenger side tire, it remains in a neutral position, several inches in the air.
    Next, let's consider my YJ. I approach the rock the same way, and pull my front passenger tire up onto the rock. Like the Hummer, my passenger side suspension compresses. Unlike the Hummer, my solid axle pivots around the differential, so as my passenger side suspension compresses, the driver's side tire is actually pushed down, decompressing the suspension on that side. This reduces the angle between my chassis and the ground. Moving to the back tires, we see that the driver's side rear axle is being pushed up because of the angle of the chassis. Again, the axle pivots around the differential, and my passenger side tire is pushed down. In fact, my rear passenger tire is being pushed down against the ground, despite that side of my vehicle being "light". Unlike the Hummer, all four of my tires are in contact with the ground, affording me better traction. It's also significant to note that my chassis is at a smaller angle to the ground than the Hummer; I'm not as close to my roll-over angle as the Hummer.
    Before we dismiss the independent suspension completely as an undesirable rock-crawling system, there is one thing to consider; modern suspension designs allow for a hydraulic, adjustable suspension. A well designed adjustable independent suspension could overcome most of the suspension-travel flaws in the independent suspension design. By the same measure, however, a hydraulically adjustable suspension would be equally capable of providing the same advantages in a solid-axle set-up.
    Potential for Damage

    One of the best attributes of an independent suspension in an off-road vehicle is the ability to move the differential up and out of harm's way, increasing center clearance. Unfortunately, the necessity for moving parts to allow for the relocated differential introduces an inherent weakness. In a solid axle set-up, the weakest link is almost always the CV joint in each steering axle shaft. The need for flexibility not only exposes the shaft, but it adds a number of small moving parts. In an independent suspension, every axle shaft, even the non-steering ones, have not one but two CV joints. This not only introduces more potential failure points, but it exposes even more of the axle shaft. Even the best independent suspensions are more prone to failure than a solid axle equivalent, so obtaining equal strength means greater weight.
    Solid axle designers have come up with an interesting technique for lifting not just the differential, but the entire axle, up relative to the wheels. This design, known as Portal Axles, uses a set of gears at the outer end of the axle shafts to position the center of the wheels several inches below the center of the main axle shaft. While this does introduce an additional level of complexity, the advantage is that doesn't need flexibility and can be completely enclosed in a solid housing. Another great advantage of portal axles is that the portal gears can be set up at unequal ratios, increasing the final gear ratio to provide even more torque and slower speeds. The Mercedes Benz Unimog stands out as an example of the advantages of a portal axle.
    The conclusion, then, is that while independent suspensions may be desirable for high speeds, in the world of rock-crawling, the solid axle is the clear winner.

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