New brushed motor for rustler

[JeremyKidd]

Looking for a new brushed motor for the rustler xl5
want some thing that is fast (dont want much or any slower than the titan)
doesnt need much maintenance (dont want to be cleaning it any more than once every 6 runs)
lasts very long (1 year plus) (hopefully the last motor before brushless)
doesnt cost over $35

I was looking at the venom fireball 15turn any good?
or a team orion 15turn or possibly trinity
If anyone has suggested me a motor could you find a video to go with it or tell me how fast It will go in my rustler.
The rustlers only upgrades are rpm front bumper, traxxas wheelie bar and dyed parts
Thanks all in advance any information is appreciated please read my other thread

[Barrelsofmonkey]

Looking for a new brushed motor for the rustler xl5
want some thing that is fast (dont want much or any slower than the titan)
doesnt need much maintenance (dont want to be cleaning it any more than once every 6 runs)
lasts very long (1 year plus) (hopefully the last motor before brushless)
doesnt cost over $35

This motor does not exist.

Brushed motors need maintenance in order to keep them, thats simply a part of them. If you want something thats more maintenance free, then go brushless. You have significantly less maintenance (though there still is some) and you'll get much more exciting results.

A more reliable brushed motor is the Electrifly S600, but it is a bit slower than the Titan.

[Agriganosa]

Agreed, there are no motors like what you just told us. All of them will require maintenance, i used to do maintenance on my titan every 2-3 months, i don't know why you do it every 6 runs... If i were you i would just save money and go to brushless and if you don't have money then grow up a little when you will have enough money for this hobby.

[Dadx2mj]

Venom Fireball motors are properly named, they are know to run hot and catch fire or at least smoke a lot

Brushed motors just require maintenance it is part of the game with them. When I ran brushed motors I did maintenance on them after every run, that is how you get maximum life span out of them but even then a year is asking a lot.

To meet the requirements you posted you really should look into brushless.

[Cipher_Jones]

The Orion 15 turn will last you till you get brushless if you take care of it. Use hard brushes.

You can find someone to cut it for you relatively cheap, and with a 15 turn on 6 cells you wont need it cut very often.

I never had a radar gun or gps when I had a 15 turn but its much faster than stock, much slower than BL.

[harry697]

Don't bother with the Venom motors. I've seen a ton of people complain about them going up in smoke within the first run.

A decent 19 turn 540 motor will out run a Titan no problem. You can go as low as 15 turn (Traxxas specs) and that will be way faster than the Titan.

Depending on where you run, you could easily go 6 runs or more without messing with the motor. But if you run in dirty areas, you should clean the motor after every session. It will help the motor run to its full potential and will last longer.

Check out the Orion Method R or Trinity Speed Gems. I haven't tried the new line of Speed Gems yet, but they seem decent. The Orion Method is a nice budget machine-wound motor with good performance and they are fairly easy on brushes and comms.

[Agriganosa]

Don't bother with the Venom motors. I've seen a ton of people complain about them going up in smoke within the first run.

A decent 19 turn 540 motor will out run a Titan no problem. You can go as low as 15 turn (Traxxas specs) and that will be way faster than the Titan.

Depending on where you run, you could easily go 6 runs or more without messing with the motor. But if you run in dirty areas, you should clean the motor after every session. It will help the motor run to its full potential and will last longer.

Check out the Orion Method R or Trinity Speed Gems. I haven't tried the new line of Speed Gems yet, but they seem decent. The Orion Method is a nice budget machine-wound motor with good performance and they are fairly easy on brushes and comms.

So what you are saying is more turns faster speed ? or traxxas just put 12 TURN sign for no reason so people think if its 12t than its going to be faster then 19t ot even 15t ?

As i remember more turn = low top speed, more torque. Opposite effect of KV system. More KV = faster speeds, low acceleration

[Cipher_Jones]

Brushed motors come rated in turns and winds. Turns dictate power/RPM, and winds dictate torque. The more winds, the less torque/more top end. The more turns, the less power.

Handwound is always more powerful than machine wound counterparts. And more expensive, and needs more care.

[harry697]

So what you are saying is more turns faster speed ? or traxxas just put 12 TURN sign for no reason so people think if its 12t than its going to be faster then 19t ot even 15t ?

As i remember more turn = low top speed, more torque. Opposite effect of KV system. More KV = faster speeds, low acceleration

You are correct in regards to turns. Lower turn motors produce higher RPM and less torque compared to higher turn motors.

The Traxxas Titan is a 550 can. Most open endbell and/or mod motors are 540 can. So a 12 turn 550 (Titan) is supposed to be equivalent to a 15 turn 540 motor. You also have to keep in mind that the Titan is a closed endbell RTR motor, so you can't rally compare it to a 15 turn modified motor. The HPI Firebolt motor that comes in the Blitz SC truck is a 15 turn 540 closed endbell motor though and it is a close match to the Titan.

[Cipher_Jones]

You are correct in regards to turns. Lower turn motors produce higher RPM and less torque compared to higher turn motors.

The Traxxas Titan is a 550 can. Most open endbell and/or mod motors are 540 can. So a 12 turn 550 (Titan) is supposed to be equivalent to a 15 turn 540 motor. You also have to keep in mind that the Titan is a closed endbell RTR motor, so you can't rally compare it to a 15 turn modified motor. The HPI Firebolt motor that comes in the Blitz SC truck is a 15 turn 540 closed endbell motor though and it is a close match to the Titan.

The longer the can the more torque also. Lower turns = more torque in general, but its because of the overall increase in power. For example, a single wind 15t will have much more torque than a quad wound 12t of the same brand.

[Emaxx2.0]

The only motor that can fit this catagory is a hybrid build co27. Fast, a lot of torque, great runtine and very little wear thanks to the Leman brushes.

[Emaxx2.0]

The longer the can the more torque also. Lower turns = more torque in general, but its because of the overall increase in power. For example, a single wind 15t will have much more torque than a quad wound 12t of the same brand.

Wrong lower turns produce less torque but more wattage= horsepower. Higher turn produces torque. So from what youre saying a rock crawler should be running 9t doubles and not a 45t. Try gearing a 15t the same as a 27t and it will bog down and heat up so fast the epoxy with melt. Yes the 550 naturally produces more torque at the expense of rpm but the Titan is not a high proformance brush motor.

[Cipher_Jones]

Right. And a motor pulling 100 watts total would be hard pressed to out torque a motor pulling 200 watts under any circumstance. Hence, they wind motors with 1-4 winds for more/less torque/rpm. Otherwise stock motor vehicles wouldn't be able to keep the front end down.

[Emaxx2.0]

That's horsepower not torque. Lower turn motors produce horsepower but are low on torque. Thats why you have to gear low. Rock crawlers are not running 12 triple that produce 200watt. They are running 27t or higher for the low end torque.

[Emaxx2.0]

Plus. Single vs other winding has a lot more involved. You have wire gauge, armature webbing, armature crown tightness, winding style, air gap magnetic field strength can thickness and timing. All this has a motors of a motors power output even at the same turn difference windings. Some duobles have more lower torque then a single even at the same turns and brand just BC the wire gauge is different.

[Agriganosa]

That's horsepower not torque. Lower turn motors produce horsepower but are low on torque. Thats why you have to gear low. Rock crawlers are not running 12 triple that produce 200watt. They are running 27t or higher for the low end torque.

We are talking about slow and fast, i don't really understand what you are trying to say with HORSEPOWER.
Is your term horsepower is on a side with speed or torque ?

You confused me, lower turn give less torque... ok then how do you explain the fact that 15t brushless accelerates faster then 9t brushless but has lower top speed ?

And i understand that crawlers use 20+t motors, that confuses me too...

[Emaxx2.0]

Horsepower is wattage. Period. A 12t has more horsepower then 15t but lower torque...that's why you gear it low for acceleration. If you geared a stock 27t the same as a 12 t it will spool up instantly. Lower turn motors produce higher wattage, higher rpms while a higher turn produce lower wattage, lower rpms but higher torque. And torque is measured completely different for brushless then brushed.

[Petertje60]

How can you measure torque different? Torque is force, (horse)power is force during an amount of time.

[JeremyKidd]

So what motor should I get?
A team orion 15 turn?
please can you guys give me more information on these
If I am running on concreate road would I have to clean the motor about every 5 runs?

[Emaxx2.0]

Depends. I say a 19turn be your best bet BC they provide the best power to runtime/comm wear ratio. They are easily faster then a Titan.

[Emaxx2.0]

How can you measure torque different? Torque is force, (horse)power is force during an amount of time.

That's correct. But you need to remember a electric motor Max torque is around zero rpms. If torque is base on Watts then a 12 t would produce double the torque of a 27t. But if that is the case why is a 12t geared way lower then a 27t if it has more torque? Wouldn't rock crawlers run 12t vs 35 to55t?

[Petertje60]

What often is mixed up, is the torque at the motor shaft and the torque at the wheel. If you have the same amount of horsepower and you take half the gear ratio (I mean a lighter gearing), the system torque doubles while the motor torque doesnt change.
This way a motor with less torque can still cause higher torque at the wheel when geared accordingly.
More horsepower with the rest the same (gearing/RPM) will simply mean more (motor) torque.

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[Emaxx2.0]

What often is mixed up, is the torque at the motor shaft and the torque at the wheel. If you have the same amount of horsepower and you take half the gear ratio (I mean a lighter gearing), the system torque doubles while the motor torque doesnt change.
This way a motor with less torque can still cause higher torque at the wheel when geared accordingly.
More horsepower with the rest the same (gearing/RPM) will simply mean more (motor) torque.

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Spool up is not the same as pulling/pushing torque. In ordered to reduce the total load on a low turn motor b/c of it's lack of torque, you run a lower gearing. You are also gearing b/c you have high amp draw and rpms. This is why a modified motor feels quicker but will run alot hotter. But put a heavy load on that motor and watch is go in smoke. This is why gearing and the type of application is so important on a modified motor. A improperly geared modified will run slower then a correctly geared stock. A higher turn motor has lower end torque, draws less amps but produces less rpms and watts. That's why you utilized the torque with taller gearing to get wheel speed. This is why they feel slower but can handle higher load levels. A Rock crawler has enough load on them that the motor has so much low end torque to snap steel drive shafts. Even if you limited the rpms on a low turn motor to that of a high turn it still will not produce the low end torque. Now if you are trying to compare brush to brushless in terms of torque it will not work.

[Cipher_Jones]

For the intents and purposes of this thread, a single wind 15t orion "throw away" is the perfect motor because it has enough torque to make the rusty happy, and will last long with little maintenance. All he has to do is gear it propperly and it will outperform the motor that comes with the rusty, or any stock motor. All he needs is a com brush and replacement brushes (hard brushes) to keep it going fast untill he can "power up".

I absolutely speak from experience when I say that.

I could go on all day about motor theory craft, and if I had my dyno and a wimpy/gonzo motor, I could show you a brushed motor that would make a brushless on 6 cells cry. The points about spool torque vs wheel torque are all valid. The points about cross brand power are all valid (I even mentioned that in the beginning). But at the end of the day orion makes great throwaways that are fun as all heck to play with in a rusty.

They are not as fast as speed gems, but speed gems require more maintenance.

[Emaxx2.0]

I have countless stock(27turns) motors that can easily keep up with mild modified motors. Had a few mods(remember maxtec). No one said the Orion wouldn't work. Orion makes a excellent motor and the 15t is good. I personally feel a 19t be best suited power output to life ratio wise but again that's my opinion. It when information is getting mixed up that's not good. The general rule of thumb is lower turn motor produce more speed and power but a higher turn is lower but have more low end torque. And there are alot of application that support this. Srtracer, Harry and myself are still the select few here that will gladly run brush anyday and has the know hows to build motors that make brushless users cry. Yet I will find it hard to give up my timing boost Tekin rs pro/7.5 setup.

[JeremyKidd]

So what would be good gearing for all round running (with the team orion 15turn)?
and how do I put new harder brushes in?

[Emaxx2.0]

Gearing. 14/90 run zero.degrees of timing and brushes should have eyelet just unscrew the ones that come with themotor and put the harder ones on.

[harry697]

I have to look at my Orion motor again, but I want to say that it doesn't have eyelets because its has the angled brushes and the shunt goes through the center of the spring, so you can't have eyelets. Then again, I may be thinking of my Orion Revolution with Vantage V2 end bell.

I'll take a look tonight. Worst case, he'll have to solder the brushes. No biggie.

[harry697]

Just looked and the Method does have eyelets on the brushes. I remember them being a pretty tight fit going through the spring, but they fit. That should make life a lot easier.

I would say go with the 19,17, or even 15 turn. They're all gonna be way better than the Titan. Your choice really depends on how fast you wanna go and how much maintenance you're willing to do.

[JeremyKidd]

so which one will have the least maintanece? 15, 17, 19 turn?

[harry697]

so which one will have the least maintanece? 15, 17, 19 turn?

In theory, the 19 turn will be the least maintenance since it's the mildest motor. But I don't think you will see a huge difference in wear between the three.

[JeremyKidd]

I will go for 15 turn then