why no brushless version

[aikin]

cmon traxxas you are bringing out all these new kits wheres the waterproof sensored brushless summit already ='(

I know you guys have one collecting dust on a shelf in your r&d warehouse! Release it already O_o!

edit: forgot to say, PLEEEEAAASSSEEE!

[ArmyofDarkness]

Seriously, think about it- the summit is not designed for high speed use- most people who put BL in their summits and try to drive it like a maxx or revo end up crashing or rolling over alot due to the high CoG and soft suspension- the massive soft tires are also terrible for high speed use. If you wanna go fast, buy an Erevo. If traxxas did do a BL summit it would need to use the MMPro esc and be limited to 4s lipo with an as-yet to be designed sensored 1515 or 1512 sized motor in the ~1600kv range.

Or, buy yourself a Tekin Rx8 system and stop moaning...

[cubsfan2010]

Agree with AoD. I had my Tekin power Erevo lifted up a bit to handle jumps and big air, but I was also running sways. I started doing a bit of mild crawling and found i had to remove the sways to get articulation. My handling went out the window and it wasn't even lifted as high as a Summit, and I am running Maxx sized Mashers vs. taller crawler tires. I had to lower it back down to keep from cartwheeling at every higher speed corner.

If Traxxas was to make a bl for the Summit I would guess it would be more like a Novak 550 size limited to 4s rather than a MMM or Tekin true 1/8 scale setup. It would be nice, however, to get bl power boost + efficiency and be waterproof from the factory. Would have to be sensored for sure.

[noir 522]

why no brushless ?
two reasons
1) cost summit ($550) + a 1/8 scale brushless system ( $280) = OUT OF TRAXXAS' MARKET GROUP
2) The summmits big claim is "go anywhere waterproof" - there is no 1/8 scale brushless, completely waterproof, sensored system on the market today - even less 3 years ago when the summit was first released. And Traxxas only release products they know are strongly designed and durable.

[ArmyofDarkness]

And Traxxas only release products they know are strongly designed and durable.

Hmmmmmm......

[noir 522]

Hmmmmmm......

well relatively speaking.

Keep in mind Traxxas market group are kids and teens whose parents expect that a $500 toy will last at least a year.

[jeremy6.5revo]

Seriously, think about it- the summit is not designed for high speed use- most people who put BL in their summits and try to drive it like a maxx or revo end up crashing or rolling over alot due to the high CoG and soft suspension

I agree completely.

[ArmyofDarkness]

well relatively speaking.

Keep in mind Traxxas market group are kids and teens whose parents expect that a $500 toy will last at least a year.

Heh heh, yeah, traxxas do say they cant promise you'll never brake a part- traxxas is like the new tamiya; a step or two up from toygrade r/cs but not as durable as many more serious manufacturers ( they could be though, see: MrCrash's threads on improving the erevo ).

[NOFX]

Hi,In reply to the "2 above hobby grade" bit.LOL,have you tried lo$i stuff? They won't honour any warrenty,at all! The trucks disintigrate when used off road.Traxxas's stuff's so much stronger.My summits MMM'd,no problem with anything stock.There are plenty of "hopup" companies that jump on the bandwagon as soon as a new truck comes out,and sell some right junk.I've wasted £100+ on a twin motor setup that blew batteries/switched off the esc,then the motors caught fire! I've not had any problems with the stock truck except the diff/gear servos,but thats sorted by the white screws in the tx.I've broken A arms,but 40 mph + tree = broken in anyones book.

[ArmyofDarkness]

You never owned an original e-maxx did you? if you did, you'd know why there are so many aftermarket companies

The newer traxxas vehicles are greatly improved, but they are still nowhere near as robust as they could be- traxxas makes alot of money form selling spare parts, think about that...

/cynical mode

[the rc joe]

I don't think traxxas is looking just at durablility, they do a good job of balancing practicality, price, weight and strength, take the t-maxx vs. savage x for example, they both cost about the same but the t-maxx is way lighter only needing a 3.3 engine and it will keep up with a savage x 4.6, and on the corners and the track it will smoke the savage out of the water. I think over all traxxas rc's are very well made

[NOFX]

You never owned an original e-maxx did you? if you did, you'd know why there are so many aftermarket companies

The newer traxxas vehicles are greatly improved, but they are still nowhere near as robust as they could be- traxxas makes alot of money form selling spare parts, think about that.... Hi good point about the maxx,I've got a 3.3,it (I) smashed it to peices 'til I discovered rpm and a roll cage.The summits ridiculously "boingy" the A arms/body/chassis flex really well,I presume the same style chassis trucks'd be as tough,same plastics,same basic design.

/cynical mode

The newer traxxas vehicles are greatly improved, but they are still nowhere near as robust as they could be- traxxas makes alot of money form selling spare parts, think about that.... Hi good point about the maxx,I've got a 3.3,it (I) smashed it to peices 'til I discovered rpm and a roll cage.The summits ridiculously "boingy" the A arms/body/chassis flex really well,I presume the same style chassis trucks'd be as tough,same plastics,same basic design

[ArmyofDarkness]

I don't think traxxas is looking just at durablility, they do a good job of balancing practicality, price, weight and strength, take the t-maxx vs. savage x for example, they both cost about the same but the t-maxx is way lighter only needing a 3.3 engine and it will keep up with a savage x 4.6, and on the corners and the track it will smoke the savage out of the water. I think over all traxxas rc's are very well made

Wont argue with that, though the savage design is aimed much more at bashing than racing- survives jumps well ( TVP chassis is better than a pan-style chassis for absorbing impacts ).

[the rc joe]

Wont argue with that, though the savage design is aimed much more at bashing than racing- survives jumps well ( TVP chassis is better than a pan-style chassis for absorbing impacts ).

the problem with the TVP chassis is it's really hard to work on and heavy

[ksb51rl]

Anybody seen the original topic anywhere around here?

[noir 522]

ORIGINAL TOPIC: WHY NO BRUSHLESS VERSION?

They already made it - its called the E-Revo Brushless Edition.

Think about it. All the differences that makes the summit into an off road/crawler vehicle (lockers, soft suspension, even softer tires, higher stance) all of these things are counterproductive to a fast brushless system. In fact more than 1/2 of the people who installed a brushless system in their summit eventually began to make their summit more "e-revo like" (stiffer /harder tires, lower stance, stiffer suspension, most have the diffs open more than locked) to make it withstand the extra power and speed and then they post on the boards asking about pinions/lipos and gearing to make it faster. So they end up duplicating what traxxas has already made.

[NOFX]

Hi,I read on here that traxxas didn't want to change the nature of the truck.crawler, light basher,"trail truck? .My MMM'd summit works well,tougher than the Maxx 3.3

[padrino]

Qualified statements like "1/2 of the people" and "most" are fun when using the forum posts as your only statistical guideline. You may in fact be right but you don't know any better then I do. It's silly for any of us to make claims like this but if I use your statement I would be in the "less then 1/2" group since I put a brushless system in my Summit and basically kept everything else stock, I've been running it like this for a while and have a blast with the extra speed.

[noir 522]

Qualified statements like "1/2 of the people" and "most" are fun when using the forum posts as your only statistical guideline. You may in fact be right but you don't know any better then I do. It's silly for any of us to make claims like this but if I use your statement I would be in the "less then 1/2" group since I put a brushless system in my Summit and basically kept everything else stock, I've been running it like this for a while and have a blast with the extra speed.

Clarification of posting: "Approximately 1/2 of the traxxas summit users who have posted that they have installed a brushless system also go on to post specifications of their vehicles with details mimmicking the traditional e-revo set up. This it to include stiffer springs/suspension, lowered overall stance, and harder firmer tires which mostly are installed to accept the rigors of increased velocity. This survey does not include the percentile of people who did not return the 2010 census report and/or did not fill out the portion regarding Traxxas summit and its ownership and customizations. Once this survey has been completed its results will be forwarded to you.

[ChristoE]

I upgraded to brushless and lipo, but only for the durability of the motor. Yes I did lose the waterproofing but then I do not really need it to be 100% waterproof. I reduced my pinion gear to minimum teeth to keep the speed as slow as possible with my setup. Everything else is 100% stock.

I mostly us it as a crawler. I added weights to the front wheel for more stability while crawling and that is it.

With the soft wide tires the Summit looks and handles as a whale out of the water, but for crawling it is perfect.

I have a real competition crawler and with my current setup I will go 90% of the places I go with the real thing.

So brushless and lipo's can be used if geared down, but if you want to race get yourself a REVO. I have both.

[the rc joe]

I upgraded to brushless and lipo, but only for the durability of the motor. Yes I did lose the waterproofing but then I do not really need it to be 100% waterproof. I reduced my pinion gear to minimum teeth to keep the speed as slow as possible with my setup. Everything else is 100% stock.

I mostly us it as a crawler. I added weights to the front wheel for more stability while crawling and that is it.

With the soft wide tires the Summit looks and handles as a whale out of the water, but for crawling it is perfect.

I have a real competition crawler and with my current setup I will go 90% of the places I go with the real thing.

So brushless and lipo's can be used if geared down, but if you want to race get yourself a REVO. I have both.

do you have a sensored or sensorless motor???

[ChristoE]

I have the XERUN 150 motor in the Summit. It is sensorless. Yes there are some cogging but not really annoying. I will however at some stage move over to a sensored motor.

I had the XERUN 80 in but I could not gear it low enough to get the speed as I want it so I replaced it with the 150 that was in my REVO.

I am running 4S 5000 40C Lipo's and I am very happy with my truck's performance.

We must also remember that crawling is a skill and that with the correct suspension settings any truck can do some crawling.

I think TRAXXAS quality is very good if you stay stock and use it responsible. The possibilities are open to upgrade, misuse, break it and eventually make it better. I for one just try to use it for what it was designed to do..... a little bashing and some crawling.

[aikin]

I never said I wanted to race. 6s would be bad in the summit but 4s is ideal. Atm I run a dewalt with 4s and I love it. I didn't think the stock motor had enough power. I'm afraid of waterproofing an esc because anytime I do stuff like that it backfires in my face and even though I don't take the summit swimming anymore I'll go mudding.

Traxxas seems to be the only company that realizes it's not alway dry outside and waterproofs they're products. So that is why I think they could atleast make this as an upgrade kit?

or how about an evx 3 with lipo support? =o

[noir 522]

I have the XERUN 150 motor in the Summit. It is sensorless. Yes there are some cogging but not really annoying. I will however at some stage move over to a sensored motor.

XERUN now sells two 1/8 size sensored motors.

[ChristoE]

I've seen the new motors and yes I am interested.

Sometimes ....and now is such a time..... the eyes and the pocket does not work together.

[jamann]

I've seen the new motors and yes I am interested.

Sometimes ....and now is such a time..... the eyes and the pocket does not work together.

Ain't that the truth

[Geemac]

I am using a Leopard 2000kv 4 pole motor and a cheap 100amp Hobbywing ESC mounted high up on the rear body mount and it works brilliantly with no cogging.
It's not over powering on 4S lipo but the stock tyres do balloon a bit at full speed.
OK it's not waterproof as such but I have enough clearance to ford streams easily and a few splashes will not do any harm.
Looking to plasti dip parts of the ESC which should help, but the ESC was so cheap I can afford to replace it occassionaly.

The motor is identical in appearance to the HPI flux motor and is apparently made in the same factory. No doubting the quality, it is a superb motor and barely gets warm on 4S. I paid £54 posted for the motor and £30 posted for the ESC, both from HongKong. Just for a Flux motor in the UK it would cost me £160.

So basically there is no point wishing for a brushless version when you can convert for so little cost. Because it's not over powered I don't expect the durability to suffer.

[ArmyofDarkness]

The motor is identical in appearance to the HPI flux motor and is apparently made in the same factory.

Nay laddy, its a cheaper quality clone made in China; Patrick ( CEO of CastleCreations ) met the company reps at a hobby expo back along and had a good talk to them ( didnt say who he was ofcourse.. ) & looked at their motors; built to the same design but with lesser quality materials. That said, they do perform very well so are a good choice for a lower budget, so cant complain.

Same is true of the hobbywing motors too, though there are plenty of cheap castle lookalikes that perform poorly also, so you've gotta be careful.

[Geemac]

If you are going to address me in such a patronising manner then at least follow up with some facts. Did you even read my post?
I never mentioned Castle creations.
Just in this thread alone you have typed a great deal but contributed nothing except recycled rubbish you can pick up on other forums.

If Patrick told you he sprinkled his motors with pixie dust would you still believe him?

HPI as an example use rebranded Ezun in at least one of thier trucks. They are not copies they are unique brands in thier own right and much respected by those of us who use them and do not wish to kiss Patricks rather expensive behind.
If you read the business section of the papers instead of the funnies page you might learn something about how the world works.
If you want to know more about Leopard check out thier website and you will see what an extensive range of products they produce. I have a 1/10 and a 1/8 motor and I would not buy any other brand now frankly.

I understand why Traxxas used castle systems to get themselves ahead in the market place but they could easily have their own branded high performance system produced at a lower cost and when the time is right they may well do.

[noir 522]

HPI as an example use rebranded Ezun in at least one of thier trucks. They are not copies they are unique brands in thier own right and much respected by those of us who use them and do not wish to kiss Patricks rather expensive behind.

If I am not mistaken I believe the HPI flux motor IS a Castle Creation motor with a different outward appearance, same for the flux esc (MMM) and the 2350 flux Q system (MM-pro with a sensoreless motor). - Just stateing , the rebranded ezrun motor you speak of I am not aware of- Which truck?

[Geemac]

Only HPI no the answer to that for sure. Not very likely though as Castle have to have their motors manufactured in China anyway as stated on their website. It would make more sense to go direct to the OEM manufacturer if you are going to put your own brand on it. Why pay a premium to Castle?

Look guys you need to get over this mystical reputation of Castle. Anybody can contact a Chinese OEM and specify what grade of bearing, grade,weight of wire, number of poles and turns etc. and the manufacturer will produce them for you with your unique branding. They are only electric motors. It's not rocket science. Their ESC would still be my choice for a powerful system. I am not anti Castle Creations but I am sick of uninformed people who keep spreading unsubstantiated rumors on forums.

All brushless motors are made in China as China is the only supplier of the rare earth metals required.
China does not export rare earth metals in any other form other than fully processed goods.
That may be about to change though. As previously mentioned - read the business news - there was a relevant story broke yesterday.
Not implying that the high end HPI Flux motors are Ezrun because they are not and my 1/8 Leopard is a different spec from the flux motor it just looks similar.

[ArmyofDarkness]

If you are going to address me in such a patronising manner then at least follow up with some facts.

Patronizing? How is 'nay laddy' patronizing exactly? I merely responded in a jovial manner.

Did you even read my post?
I never mentioned Castle creations.

Castle creations owns the factory you were implying the Leopard motors were also made in; they arent- castle only makes their own branded motors & the ones for HPI & traxxas ( exclusive OEM deals ). So yeah, you did mention castlecreations indirectly- you clearly arent in possession of many facts regarding who makes what motors and escs for whom.

Just in this thread alone you have typed a great deal but contributed nothing except recycled rubbish you can pick up on other forums.

If Patrick told you he sprinkled his motors with pixie dust would you still believe him?

HPI as an example use rebranded Ezun in at least one of thier trucks. They are not copies they are unique brands in thier own right and much respected by those of us who use them and do not wish to kiss Patricks rather expensive behind.
If you read the business section of the papers instead of the funnies page you might learn something about how the world works.

HPI use rebadged castle escs- you can tell because they look identical and have castlecreations printed on the frickin' wires for goodness sake ( cant specualte on who makes their brished escs though, most likely rebadged chinese items like you said- the BL escs and motors are 100% castle ).

You're clearly just another hater who doesnt like how well castle have done for themselves; Patrick has been nothing but honest and open at all times about what his company produces and how they do it; they even invite members of forums to come and see the factory in Kansas for themselves occasionally, with guided photo-tours of all the production stages and equipement.

I get my info from years of experience and shared experience with other highly respected, skilled and experienced r/c dudes- you have done nothing but demonstrate how rude and ignorant ( in every sense ) you are towards people who go out of their way to help other people and guide them along with their builds and problems.

You sound like a dailymail reader....

If you want to know more about Leopard check out thier website and you will see what an extensive range of products they produce. I have a 1/10 and a 1/8 motor and I would not buy any other brand now frankly.

I understand why Traxxas used castle systems to get themselves ahead in the market place but they could easily have their own branded high performance system produced at a lower cost and when the time is right they may well do.

You mean sign up with a clone factory that knocks off existing American & European escs & motors, and also offers often very little service to anyone outside of China? Yeah, that sounds like a great idea. I've been aware of Leopard motors and many other brands you've probably never heard of for a long time- it what comes from researching the hobby to find new equipment and manufacturers

[Geemac]

Sorry Army of Darkness but you have not changed my opinion any.
I posted relevant info based on my experience which might be of practical use to some one else and you come along and imply a motor of which you do not seem to own is just cheap low grade stuff because it's not a Castle Creation. Hardly constructive is it?
So what if castle owns a factory in china. So does every other leading brand these days.
Castle products have nothing to do with what I was discussing.

You have posted over 1500 posts since July and it seems to me you just like passing comment for the sake of it. Perhaps if you actualy took time to read posts in detail and consider your replies you would be of more benefit to others.
Shouting down anyone who dares to mention cheap products is not helping the RC community.
For your information I am no "Laddy".

[ArmyofDarkness]

Relevant info? That you bought a cheap esc and motor for your truck and it works well, and that you're too tight-fisted to buy more expensive equipment? Yeah, really indepth technical info thats helping the thread along there, cheers dude. I merely stated that it IS CHEAPER BUT DOES WORK WELL still; compare prices and you'll see that it is indeed cheaper- compare feedback and you'll see hardly anyone uses those escs, fewer still the motors but they are gaining in popularity. Just because someone can afford to buy a well supported, American designed/ made BL system, doesnt mean you should knock them by saying your cheap chinese clone system is somehow better because its cheaper- how many other systems have you tested to form a basis for comparison exactly?

Castle has everything to do with what you are discussing- you seem to have forgotten what you posted initially me thinks.
I never shout down people for using cheaper escs, lipos, or motors- I often encourage it! There is more than one way to skin a cat as they say ( lots of options besides castle escs and motors ).


I have over 1500 posts, yeah; 1400* of those will be offering advise, finding and posting solutions to problems and general exchange of experiences with people who run similar setups to my own in order to better my personal knowledge- go through my posts and you'll see that you're judging me based on one thread, and only because I commented that your cheap motor isnt made by castle creations; talk about an over reaction, sheesh.

Sorry if you arent a laddy, guessing that means you're a grumpy old fart then ( Im 27- middle aged... )

*the other 100 are just me hurling verbal abuse at noobs for not reading the faq or posting daft questions; Im past that now ( for a week or so... )

[robs4rc]

All brushless motors are made in China as China is the only supplier of the rare earth metals required.

What "rare earth metals" are you referring to?

[Geemac]

We are talking about brushless in a Summit. You don't risk water damage on something that expensive.

Copied from Castles site.

WARRANTY IS VOIDED BY

•Using controller outside of its intended performance specification (running outside of MAX voltage/current, gearing, or wrong application/vehicle).
•Physical damage including crash, or water submersion.
•Modification of controller such as soldering on controller, gluing items on the controller, potting the controller, etc. There are no user-serviceable parts on these controllers, we do not recommend attempts to repair or solder on the board.

[ChristoE]

This thread is currently not going anywhere.

I have always done my own research, backed with documentation and stats before starting to ask questions.

The FAQ's, tutorials, user manuals must be studied to give a good foundation for your research. I do not agree with everything the gurus tells you but I do not fight them.

Do some good in depth research before making recommendations or start a fight on the forum.

Internet/Google is your friend. Use it.

Nobody knows everything about everything, but it is always good to listen to experience.

Look at the ERBE forum. There are quite a few break and fix threads that are really very interesting. I will never do such things with any of my trucks, but it give me a good idea of what is tested and what did proof to be the best.

I agree with AOD. We should read the existing documentation and do some investigating before jumping on the forum with duplicate requests that may cause some redness under the collar.

Just my 2 sents. I will go into hiding now.

[ArmyofDarkness]

What "rare earth metals" are you referring to?

Neo-Dynam

Not all motors are made in china- ever heard or importing materials? Neu motors are built in the USA, novak too unless Im mistaken. Castle setup a factory in china because it means less overheads, mainly business taxes- they dont employ anyone under 18, and pay a fair wage- I've seen photos of their plant and the staff photos, no child labourers- can you say the same of hobbywing, or any of the other large chinese/ oriental oem companies?

All lipos are made in china or korea, doesnt mean anything much since thats where the raw materials are.

You're right about the cost of the esc though; hence why people go to great lengths to waterproof the MMM with plastidip or liquid-latex. Even if the esc fails its only $75 for a non-warrenty replacement- do you get a cheap replacement if you intentionally damage your esc through miss-use or by modding it?

@ChristoE - I agree, I never stop reading and learning, I dont know everything either and Im happy for people to prove me wrong or correct me on something if I post duff info. The more time we spend in this hobby the more we learn and the more we experience, thats what makes some people noobs and others pros, along with general attitude to finding answers for one's self vs seeking help at every single hurdle.

[robs4rc]

Neo-Dynam

Magnets? OK, gotcha.

But if China wants to be able to keep importing Titanium, they'll keep exporting Neo-Dynam magnets.

[Geemac]

My point is if you think flux motors are made by Castle then just politely point it out. It was not overly relevant to my post.
Electric motors of various types have been manufactured since 18th century and the notion that only one manufacturer can make a quality product is ludicrous. Propagating the steriotypical image of Chinese goods all being cheap knock off's is insulting to china and it's people. You don't hear people saying their space rocket is a cheap knock off of Apollo rocket do you?
Bikers used to say the same thing about Honda motorcycles in the 60's and look what happened there.

China does not export rare earth metals, not to the USA anyway, and it was announced 2 days ago they were to resume.
America is desperately trying to locate it's own source of rare earth metals which is important to us as it may affect prices for motors in the future.

I predict the first manufacturer to produce a waterproof 6S capable system will corner the market and if it's a Chinese company then Castle will lose much of their market share. It's a classic failing when a CEO thinks he can dismiss the opposition as inferior. Thats the attitude that destroyed British industry.