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Thread: V-twin summit?

  1. #1
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    V-twin summit?

    I am looking to up the power on my summit and maybe get a little more speed too. Obviously, brushless is the way to go. Here are the requirements for what I want:
    -Brushless
    -Fully waterproof
    -Batteries:
    -LiFe or Nimh (I don't want to deal with Lipo, please don't get mad at me for it. They are too delicate.)
    -Good voltage
    -Long lasting
    -High discharge rate
    -Able to physically fit in the summit (this is especially true with LiFe)
    So far the closest thing I have found to meeting these requirements is doing a v-twin (dual vxl systems) set up. Is there anyone that runs a summit like that? How would that set up work?
    Right now I have two team orion 4500mah 8.4v Nimh's with 120A discharge rates. They work good in the stock set up, but what if I were to put in a v-twin system. Would they be able to handle that well and deliver good performance/run time (I want some good run times here, not something like 10 minutes)? Also, what kind of speed could I expect out of that with stock gearing? And since the vxl's have a lot of power, could I increase my pinion teeth to get more speed?
    I am just looking for a setup here that yields good power and maybe a little more speed (maybe somewhere around 30mph). I thought the v-twin might work but I am open to any suggestions. Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
    Last edited by larsen8; 10-26-2010 at 06:18 PM.
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    I did alot of research on the V-twin setup myself. It seems like a really good system for a basher, but I dont believe it will be able to crawl, the cogging on a single vxl is bad, two together is going to be worse.

    there is lots of stuff on you tube if you search v-twin erevo.

    this is a really good bit on it as well.http://monster.traxxas.com/showpost....14&postcount=2 check out item #14
    http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?536733

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    GUY, In truth I still dont know how people run the MMM in the summit. I have played with all the firmware upgrades and it still hesitates and jerks off the line when trying to take off slow, and if you slow down too much it starts to cogg. And if you drive stop and go slow - it can seem like the batts are dying. It is slightly better in low gear but still has the jerky take-offs. v1.20 and all the rest . Im scared to try v1.28 many says it bricks the system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by noir522
    GUY, In truth I still dont know how people run the MMM in the summit. I have played with all the firmware upgrades and it still hesitates and jerks off the line when trying to take off slow, and if you slow down too much it starts to cogg. And if you drive stop and go slow - it can seem like the batts are dying. It is slightly better in low gear but still has the jerky take-offs. v1.20 and all the rest . Im scared to try v1.28 many says it bricks the system.
    So are you saying I should just keep it stock and curb my desire for power? And I did look through the summit FAQ and looked at all those v-twin build threads, but none of them are for a summit, so I know that I would get different results.
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  6. #6
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    v1.28 is one to avoid- go for the fixed update- 1.29 or 1.30, whatever is the current one.

    V-twin in a crawler doesnt sound like a good idea to me either- its a speed-run setup really, to get near-MMM speeds on 6s lipo, definately not for crawling.

    Go for a tekin Rx8 with a low kv motor, open the esc up and cover it in warrenty-voiding goop, or put the esc inside a small tuperware container and run the wires out of a small hole that you can then seal with silicon.

    A123 cells wont be much good, cant fit more than 4 in each side = 3s lipo ( 4s2p setup for a123s due to low mah capacity ), pretty poor power for the heavy summit. Lipos arent fragile at all, no more so than the new softcase Lifepo4 packs that havent been getting the best of feedback so far either. Do your reading around and read the faqs/ tutorials on lipo care and you wont have issues.

    No nimh cells will sustain 120amps discharge, thats just bogus marketing at it's best- figure more like 60-70 amps with high temps and massive voltage droop more realistically.

    If 30mph is all you're after, then I think a pair of motors from Kershaw might work just fine- cheaper than a~$300 BL setup and will run fine on nimhs.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen8
    So are you saying I should just keep it stock and curb my desire for power?
    Not at all.

    I am very pleased with my setup so far. Running about 32 MPH. sensored, brushless, I estimate 4-5 hrs crawling/hiking time on 4s LiPo and water resistant, I even accidentally dunked the MMpro a couple days ago with no harm done

    http://monster.traxxas.com/showthread.php?t=536733
    http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?536733

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    Okay, thanks for the information. It's feels good to refresh my mind once in a while and realize how much I really don't know . I am still relatively new to brushless and it is amazing how many possibilities are out there. And how many little details about them I don't know. What you guys have told me has been extremely helpful. I would like to go brushless with this thing (mainly for convience of not having to clean my motor anymore), but I think it is clear that it is going to be too expensive for what I am looking for. And this is a stupid quesion, but what does v1.28, v1.29 and v1.30 mean? Also, besides the increased speed, what other performance differences would I see with the Kershaw motors? Are they powerful, long-lasting motors? Would running two motors drain my batteries a lot faster? If I were to get them, are there any things I need to change on the truck or be aware of? Again, thanks for all the help.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen8
    So are you saying I should just keep it stock and curb my desire for power? And I did look through the summit FAQ and looked at all those v-twin build threads, but none of them are for a summit, so I know that I would get different results.

    as for the faq - keep in mind a summit is really just an e-revo. Also wether in an emaxx or e-revo the vtwin set up is essentially the same

    v1.20 v1.29 are firmware (software) updates for the MMM system

    version 1.20 is supposed to be best for low speeds/ crawling
    version 1.29 has additional controls over speed/reducing speed and battery power manipulation etc etc. More technical.

    For the ultimate in brushless I still say go Tekin - but im biased.

    kershaw motors are good/ water proof, faster than stock. A single kershaw is good (more speed), and is a drop-in option (no changes). A dual kershaw - in my opinion is expensive - $100 and top heavy, with a top speed of 28mph and terrible power consumption, comes with a special motor mount (higher center of gravity) and requires you to place your esc up on the back body post (higher cog and will tip backwards easier). Better to save a lil mo dough for a brushless system. -Kershaw sells some good low priced brushless systems.
    Last edited by noir522; 10-26-2010 at 08:03 PM.
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    what does v1.28, v1.29 and v1.30 mean? these are different firmware versions for the MMM ESC(programming updates)

    Also, besides the increased speed, what other performance differences would I see with the Kershaw motors? its not even so much increased speed as increased torque. the torque allows you to gear much higher for the speed increase. The one downside for dual motors IMO is the additional weight of the extra motor and the fact they are mounted quite high up on the chassis.

    Are they powerful, long-lasting motors? Yes

    Would running two motors drain my batteries a lot faster? Nasty350LT1 is running this set up in his Super Summit. he had to switch over to Lipo because the Nimh packs only lasted 10 min and got super heated

    If I were to get them, are there any things I need to be aware of? A lot of

    darn it noir you beat me to the punch again,
    http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?536733

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    traxxas made that new boat titan I mean spartan, it's a velenion system that goes to one motor and takes two batt's, I would look into that for going brushless
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  12. #12
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    Worst idea ever^.

    The boat uses a boat esc that has no proportional brakes and only 50% reverse speed/power- no good at all in a truck. Plus, its only really waterproof because its inside a sealed hull; drive the truck through a few puddles and see how long it lasts...
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyofDarkness
    Worst idea ever^.

    The boat uses a boat esc that has no proportional brakes and only 50% reverse speed/power- no good at all in a truck. Plus, its only really waterproof because its inside a sealed hull; drive the truck through a few puddles and see how long it lasts...
    is it not also water cooled?
    http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?536733

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    well, I'm no marine nerd
    anything can be fixed with duct tape and zip ties

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    You see, I would love to go bushless, but I don't want to spend what, like $500 to get the motor, esc, and two lipos. So, would it be a good idea to just put a single kershaw motor in (We're talking about the 700 HO right)? Would that give me higher speed and more power? (as noir522 said) I am assuming there would not be any problems with that. Also, in the case that I do decide to go brushless, what are some ways to waterproof the esc? I know I already had one suggestion, but I know that there are a lot of ways to do it. Also, Quadiak, in his first post, mentioned vxl motors cogging while crawling. What does this refer to/mean?
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    cogging is when the motor st st st stutters when going slow. (the esc is searching for the position of the motors internals. Brushed motors dont have this problem. And sensored brushless motors have a sensor cable and circuit to detect the motors position.

    Kershaw single motor is a good choice (simple and easy) but the Dewalt is stronger and will last longer due to its higher power handling capabilities and it has replaceable brushes ($3 a set)
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    dewalt more torque more speed. bearings instead of bushings replaceable brushes better motor than the 7oo ho Imo and cheaper too
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    So it looks like the dewalt motor might be a better upgrade than the kershaw 700 HO motor. Can those dewalt motors handle water? A lot of water? Do they require break-in?
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  19. #19
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    Water no problem.I didn't break mine in I just took it easy the first few packs if your running in lots of water just clean and lube more often.
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    Does it just clean the same way as any other electric motor? Will I see a good speed and torque increase? Also, do those motors last a long time and run cool?
    Thanks so much for all your help guys, this is great.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen8
    Does it just clean the same way as any other electric motor? Will I see a good speed and torque increase? Also, do those motors last a long time and run cool?
    Thanks so much for all your help guys, this is great.
    It's a brushed motor same as titan and 700ho just more powerfull and better built to take the abuse a cordless drill has to put up with.More torque and therfore can be geared for a bit more speed not brushless speed though lot's of torque to spare.mine runs pretty cool on 4s lipo the brushes are replaceable so should last a long time if cared for
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  22. #22
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    is it not also water cooled?
    It is. That doesnt mean water touches the electronics, it merely passes through a water-block stuck to the FETs- if ytou ran the esc on land it would overheat due lack of cooling fins for air-cooling..

    well, I'm no marine nerd
    Me neither, but I do bother to read the specs, and possess some common sense when it comes to electronics selection for any given application- its called experience ( time + reading + doing )

    Back on topic- dewalt is tasty option for sure...
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    So can anyone give me an estimate on the speeds I can get (safely) with a 14v dewalt motor and the batteries that I have (described at top)? The more I look into a dewalt motor the more I am intrigued. I wonder if it would give me enough extra speed to do a backflip of the jumps at my local bike track. No harm in trying (okay, not entirely true).
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    I am no backflip expert, but I'm pretty sure its not going to happen without running a big ole brushless motor and 6s Lipo. the thing with the brushless motors is that they rev extremely fast. They also nose dive extremely quickly if running a high drag brake setting and I forget to keep the trigger from returning to neutral. Even my tame brushless system has given me an amazing amount of flight control as far as nose up or nose down, its a lot of fun to practice
    http://traxxas.com/forums/showthread.php?536733

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    a dewalt 12 volt will get just over 30mph when geared high and running 5s. But the 14.4 would probably do it safer with less heat. The torque is great, wheelies are easy - I have yet to do a backflip though.
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    I would be running dual 8.4v 4500mah Nimh's. Would that give me much better performance over stock? And I didn't think the EVX-2 could even handle 5s of lipo batteries.
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    yes performance over stock is better. Initial set up will give roughly the same speed but MUCH torque. But with the dewalt you can run more aggressive gearing and consistantly run 5s without the motor dying and achieve greater speeds. Yes the EVX2 can handle 5S lipo power - use of low voltage cut off is recommended
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    Okay, since I am not going to be running 5s, what gearing is a good place to start with the dewalt 14v motor? Should I just gear by temparature? What motor temps? I would like to maximize speed out of this motor but keep it in proper temp ranges for extended life. If I put a cooling fan on the motor, could I gear it higher?
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  29. #29
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    I ran a Dewalt 12v in a Erevo for about 7 months and loved it. That was about 150 runs on a mixture of 4s and 5s lipo. Went through one set of brushes and the motor was still pulling strong until my Evx2 failed (my fault) and I went bl.

    I was geared 21/62 running Masher 3.2's and was good for about 30mph on 4s and 35mph on 5s with HUGE torque. The motor has a internal fan like the Titans, but I would still see temps of 200F regularly with no damage. Someone actually had a Dewalt go to 300F and still continue to work.

    Lipo is almost a must with the Dewalt since it so amp hungry and NIMH will struggle to feed it.

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    I'm running lipo as well never tried it on nimh 16t p 68 spur steep slow speed climbing still fairly cool not alot of air flow at slow speeds and it's workin hard climbing the mountain.Not as hard as me though thats with big tires too.doesn't really answer your question but get you in the ballpark
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    Well, I'm trying to avoid having to get lipos here (mainly because of the cost), so maybe the dewalt is not the best choice. Should I stick with the kershaw 700 HO? Will it provide somewhat similar performance compared with the Dewalt?
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen8
    Well, I'm trying to avoid having to get lipos here (mainly because of the cost), so maybe the dewalt is not the best choice. Should I stick with the kershaw 700 HO? Will it provide somewhat similar performance compared with the Dewalt?
    I payed $30 a pack shipped for 5000 2s 30c. I payed more for my pro match nimh.But thats neither here nor there the 700 ho is a bit better than the titan a bit more power the nimh kinda hold you back for speed a bit shorter run time with the 700 ho over the titan goin fast costs money from what i,ve seen.The kershaw is a drop in motor at least
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    I just took a quick look at some of the novak brushless systems. They seem to be cheaper than most others, and they don't have as high of amp draw, so I could use my current batteries. Which Novak system would be the best one? Again, I am looking for a little higher top speed, but also a brushless system that does not suck at crawling.
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  34. #34
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    pm quandiak - He ran a Novak system. You could fill you in and the good and the bad. I'll simply say "go Tekin"
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    HvPro 7.5 would be tastey on 14nimhs for sure, but it wont like being in a 13lb truck... how much does a summit weight anyway?
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    Back to the V twin idea, I have not reseached this at all but I have a thought.

    Can you splice the one sensored motor lead (from the one motor that turnes the right way) into two ESC's? This may reduce the cogging and maybe keep the motors/ESC's from fighting each other.

    Or the other option may be to use a kersaw twin motor mount plate so both the motors spin the right way and run the sensors on both.

    Again, I have not looked into this at all and don't have any plans of running this setup any time soon so if it is old news just let me know.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by larsen8
    Well, I'm trying to avoid having to get lipos here (mainly because of the cost), so maybe the dewalt is not the best choice. Should I stick with the kershaw 700 HO? Will it provide somewhat similar performance compared with the Dewalt?
    Single 700 HO will be hardly any better than a Titan 775 and way less than a Dewalt. It will take the twin 700 HO kit to match the Dewalt.

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    Right now my summit wheighs 13 and 1/2 lbs. That is with both batteries and the current motor. Subtact 1 and 1/2 or 2 lbs. for the motor. So the truck and batteries with no motor or esc is going to be somewhere around 11 lbs. I would think. Here is a new series of thoughts that just came to me:
    -Another reason I didn't want to get lipo's is that they are not waterproof (except for maxamps, but they are sooooo expensive)
    -If I am going to go brushless, I might as well get lipo's anyway because the esc would not be waterproof.
    -If I want to keep the truck waterproof, I would have to keep my brushed motor and Nimh's.
    -However, I could just get a novak, keep my nimh's, and run the stock brushed system (waterproof) in the wet winter, and the brushless novak in the dry summer. That's a lot of hassel though. Any good ways to waterproof an esc (any esc for that matter?).
    -There is only one option that I can see for upgrading but staying brushed: a dewalt motor (single 700 HO is out because not enough power, dual HO's are out because why spend double for two motors when you can spend half for one motor that can match the perfomance of the two). But, as Cubsfan2010 said, the my Nimh's will struggle to feed the dewalt motor so I would still have to upgrade batteries (maybe I should get lipos, but I guess I am just paranoid about how much more dangerous they are than other batteries).
    -But wait, he was talking about the 12v. Doesn't the 14v run better with less stress on the batteries? Would a 14v and my current Nimh's work well together?
    -Either way, it is clear there is not a completely satisfying solution.
    Also, I have no idea whether diby 2000's suggestion would work, but comments on that would be helpful.
    Thanks for all your help and suggestions.
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  39. #39
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    The Dewalt is a amp hungry monster in any voltage. It's a very inefficient motor.

    VXL motors are not sensored so no way to reduce cogging.

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    Sorry I forgot about that.
    But maybe you could get some other sensored motors and try it? - I'm sure the ESC is sensored.

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