MMM Summit Conversion - Tips & Tricks

[Bakushan]

Ok,

So I was really excited to do a MMM for my Summit on Monday. At TRAXXAS yesterday, a tech there said "Dont do it!". He listed several reasons:

-You will lose water-proofing
-Summit was not built for high speed, i should buy an e-revo-brushless
-Locking Diffs dont like the MMM
-Gears and other componets dont like the MMM
-MMM does not climb hills and do off-road as well as the TITAN
-MMM does not have enough low end...

What do you guys have to say about this?

If you have a 100% STOCK summit, and wanted to upgrade to a MMM, what ALL components would you need to change or upgrade?

1. MMM & ESC - $255
2. Lipo Batteries - $220?
3. Lipo Charger - $150?
4. Gears?
5. Fluids???
6. Wheelie bar??!?!?
7. NEW TIRES?!?!?!



All of the options and the lack of "official instructions" make my head spin. I wish the SUMMIT forum here had SUB forums.

[Traxximus Prime]

The best thing I ever did to my summit besides lipos was the MMM. No low e d torque my butt!!!

[swift06]

I have already decided that if I do any changes as far as power it will be the Kershaw twins. It will still be water resistant, and doesn't cost a fortune like a MMM setup. That to me will be enough power. If I felt I needed to drive something that goes a hundred miles an hour I wouldnt have bought a Summit in the first place.

[Bakushan]

The best thing I ever did to my summit besides lipos was the MMM. No low e d torque my butt!!!

Ok.

So being a Summit owner with a MMM, did you find that the motor swap took anything "away" from you? Did you break anything BECAUSE of the MMM swap? Did you do any preventative upgrades with the MMM?

Would you possibly recommend getting lipos FIRST... running them on the stock 775 for a while... and then getting the MMM?

I have heard that the largest battery you can fit in a stock summit without modding is 2S 8000m Lipo. Is this true or not? I have heard too much to know what is right or wrong?!?!?

[Traxximus Prime]

Swap was easy. It does everything better. I didn't gear it to the moon. Just the stock 14T. The brushless motor is also more efficiant so you get longer run times. Kershaw twin take TOO much power and last half as long as the same lipos on a brushless. If you don't do brushless do a dewalt. The dewalt will tear apart a kershaw twin. I also have a dewalt 12v all mounted up on a spare motor plate. I haven't tried it yet. But when I want to go water bashing it's just 3 screws to pull the motor and ESC out. 5 minutes and your swapped out.

The largest battery you can fit is what I run. An SMC 28C 9000mah 2S

[Bakushan]

Thanks Traxximus!

[stewster23]

I have had a mmm in my summit for the past two weeks and love it. I didnt lose anything i gained alot. So go with the mmm and some lipo's and you will be set

[mulepic]

If you do more crawling than speed you may prefer a sensored system (i.e tekin rx8, novak) over a non-sensored (i.e MMM). I've tried both sensored and sensoredless and I couldn't crawl w/ the senorless for more than a half hour before I took it out. The tekin is a bit more expensive so you there are things to weigh when considering a brushless setup.

[sfr4x4]

Yeah that guy was either very seriously misinformed, or he was... Well I won't go there (very obvious he has never tried putting the MMM or anything similar into a Summit )

The only one single point out of all those he was (only partially) correct on was that you'd lose it being waterproof (more like it's submersibility. It's been said by Castle themselves the MMM ESC is splash resistant due to having a silicone conformal coating over the circuit boards used in it).

The Summit's drivetrain is 99% of the E-Revo Brushless (some parts such as the axle shafts are even stronger). Everything that makes the Summit what it is was simply "appended" to the ERBE's design (all the gears inside the locking diff for example are exactly the same parts, or are the same size as the ERBE's). Only thing you shouldn't be doing is blasting along at 40+ MPH with the lockers locked (this one is just common sense).
Chassis is the same, suspension is the same, blah blah blah, it's all the same other than being optioned out of the box a little differently (LT rockers vs. P2 rockers, etc).

Not sure where the comments about no low end or climbing hills came from... That's about the best excuse to run brushless if you want long running times. I will say though current versions of the MMM's firmware do have some low-speed problems with throttle application. Best one to use is v1.20 if it's going into a Summit.

Take a read through these posts. A lot of what's needed was talked about here
http://monster.traxxas.com/showthread.php?t=509781
http://monster.traxxas.com/showthread.php?t=511378
This one outlines the exact differences between the two if you wanted to "convert" it from one to the other
http://monster.traxxas.com/showthread.php?t=511155

You may also want to consider the Tekin RX8/2000 or 2250 combo as well. This setup has an additional sensor on the motor that will eliminate the chattering noise that tends to occur with the MMM at low speeds when crawling. It's more expensive however, and I personally don't care for the exposed solder posts on it that you have to solder your wires to.

[Mao®]

To clarify, the diffs on the Summit are VERY different from the Revo. I wish they were same, my Dewalt's broken 3 diff carriers and spider gears so far, and noone around here stocks them.
As for the MMM not being waterproof, I've seen a video of the motor running submerged, and the ESC's a breeze to waterproof with "brush on electrical tape".

[sfr4x4]

Yeah, the Revo (nitro) diffs are indeed different (weaker-- no I-beam or thrust plates). Best thing would be to swap those over to E-Revo diffs. Not sure how this is relevant though...

[Mao®]

Yeah, the Revo (nitro) diffs are indeed different (weaker-- no I-beam or thrust plates). Best thing would be to swap those over to E-Revo diffs. Not sure how this is relevant though...

It's relevant because someone mentioned that they thought the Summit and Revo diffs are the same. A couple of the gears are, but the diff carrier and locking side pinion are very different. The diff carrier has proven to me to be very weak and a pain to get a replacement for. In fact, I might be sourcing some custom CNC'd aluminum ones here soon. Anyone else interested?

[sfr4x4]

No one here said anything about Revo diffs before you did. I said the Summit and E-Revo diffs use the same parts, or the same size parts. (you are aware the Revo and E-Revo are different diffs, right?)
I'm assuming you're speaking of the diff cup when you say "carrier"? It's the same too outside of having the notches in the end for the locking collar to engage to.

I'm not sure why you think they're so different (or at least different sized)... Have you actually compared them yourself? If you keep breaking them then you might try shimming the gears up tighter (that is if your slipper clutch is set properly). This is what worked for me, and works for many E-Revo owners too, being their diffs do infact have the same parts inside as well.

[loudgonzo]

Ok,

So I was really excited to do a MMM for my Summit on Monday. At TRAXXAS yesterday, a tech there said "Dont do it!". He listed several reasons:

-You will lose water-proofing
-Summit was not built for high speed, i should buy an e-revo-brushless
-Locking Diffs dont like the MMM
-Gears and other componets dont like the MMM
-MMM does not climb hills and do off-road as well as the TITAN
-MMM does not have enough low end...

What do you guys have to say about this?

If you have a 100% STOCK summit, and wanted to upgrade to a MMM, what ALL components would you need to change or upgrade?

1. MMM & ESC - $255
2. Lipo Batteries - $220?
3. Lipo Charger - $150?
4. Gears?
5. Fluids???
6. Wheelie bar??!?!?
7. NEW TIRES?!?!?!



All of the options and the lack of "official instructions" make my head spin. I wish the SUMMIT forum here had SUB forums.

You already have the MMM don't you? I would suggest get the lipos and then run the truck till the motor or the ESC gives out, then drop the MMM in. Then you'll be able to see the difference for yourself, and not have to worry about replacing a perfectly working system right away.

[Bakushan]

Well...

I am getting the MMM today. $250

SMC lipos come in wednesday (2S 8000m) $89ea

Got a awesome charger for the lipos $200

Ordered new wheels too $90

And new tires $90

LOL

I am happy with the speed of the 775 (but why not have more!) what I am really after is LOOOOONGER play time.

[loudgonzo]

Well...

I am getting the MMM today. $250

SMC lipos come in wednesday (2S 8000m) $89ea

Got a awesome charger for the lipos $200

Ordered new wheels too $90

And new tires $90

LOL

I am happy with the speed of the 775 (but why not have more!) what I am really after is LOOOOONGER play time.

I hear ya, but spending more $$ on upgrades than the original cost of the truck without having used the truck much to begin with, well......

I'm more of the "upgrade it as it breaks"....

[broken summit]

I got a MMM combo off ebay brand new pulled from a E-Revo Brushless Edition for $270 shipped the same combo tower sells for $510

[Mao®]

No one here said anything about Revo diffs before you did. I said the Summit and E-Revo diffs use the same parts, or the same size parts. (you are aware the Revo and E-Revo are different diffs, right?)
I'm assuming you're speaking of the diff cup when you say "carrier"? It's the same too outside of having the notches in the end for the locking collar to engage to.

I'm not sure why you think they're so different (or at least different sized)... Have you actually compared them yourself? If you keep breaking them then you might try shimming the gears up tighter (that is if your slipper clutch is set properly). This is what worked for me, and works for many E-Revo owners too, being their diffs do infact have the same parts inside as well.

Well, not sure how I offended you, but it appears it was you who said the Revo (E-Revo) diffs were the same as the Summit's, before you edited your post. Regardless of Revo vs. E-Revo (irrelevant?), neither one has locking diffs. And yes, it is in fact called a diff "carrier", but often referred to as a "cup". Guess that saves a syllable, or typing or something.
And yes, they've been shimmed. Try running 8.5" Jumbo Kongs with 6s on a Dewalt 18v, shims aren't going to save your diffs, believe me.

[Zinno]

Yeah that guy was either very seriously misinformed, or he was... Well I won't go there (very obvious he has never tried putting the MMM or anything similar into a Summit

No misinformation here.... We've tried just about every combination of products available to the public (and some which are not). And why not... After all, we do have a pretty big parts bin to select from..

Our guys believe in keeping the "soul" of a vehicle the way it was originally engineered. Summit is a slow speed crawling torque monster - not an ideal pallete for a high power brushless system. It's not an issue of durability, the parts were engineered to take the power. It's just so much power that it distracts you from what we wanted the Summit to be. With that said, you can tune it down, use less voltage, or adjust the truck to behave like a crawler if you still want to use MMM power. If you want to turn your Summit into a speed demon, there are parts you can put on it for that too.

Its a hobby, its all about experimentation.

[sfr4x4]

And yes, they've been shimmed. Try running 8.5" Jumbo Kongs with 6s on a Dewalt 18v, shims aren't going to save your diffs, believe me.

Oh well gee dude... Maybe THAT just by some very slight odd remote chance, quite possibly could be your problem!??

How long would an E-Revo last with those big huge monstrosities on it??? (yeah, you haven't tried that have you... Nevermind then ).

Guess I'm done here.
Here's a tip for ya... Instead of just sitting there and insisting things are different, you might try looking up some of the part numbers for yourself and see that they do infact take the same pt# for spider gear and ring & pinion gear sets. Oh and while you're at it, also look up the difference between the Revo and E-Revo too. To lump them together as "Revo diffs" is wrong (and just confuses the issue as you did above)

Oh, and P.S., It's pretty hard to edit a post after 30 minutes or whatever it is after they yank your privileges to edit your own posts here, so try again on that one too.

[sfr4x4]

No misinformation here.... We've tried just about every combination of products available to the public (and some which are not). And why not... After all, we do have a pretty big parts bin to select from..

Our guys believe in keeping the "soul" of a vehicle the way it was originally engineered. Summit is a slow speed crawling torque monster - not an ideal pallete for a high power brushless system. It's not an issue of durability, the parts were engineered to take the power. It's just so much power that it distracts you from what we wanted the Summit to be. With that said, you can tune it down, use less voltage, or adjust the truck to behave like a crawler if you still want to use MMM power. If you want to turn your Summit into a speed demon, there are parts you can put on it for that too.

Its a hobby, its all about experimentation.

Well, here's how I saw it:

According to the OP, he was told:

-You will lose water-proofing
-Summit was not built for high speed, i should buy an e-revo-brushless
-Locking Diffs dont like the MMM
-Gears and other componets dont like the MMM
-MMM does not climb hills and do off-road as well as the TITAN
-MMM does not have enough low end...

To me it sounded like whoever it was that said that was trying to force their opinion on the OP by making those statements like they are fact and that he should go buy a different car (I also do realize that parts could've been lost in the translation here too, I don't know). I'm only going on what was presented here. However working for Traxxas, you should know even better than I do the Summit and E-Revo are quite very similar underneath, they are just optioned differently. It's not difficult to make one behave much like the other (or creating a hybrid of the two) using a minimum of different parts (which I think goes right with your last statement very well. It's all about experimenting. Without this I don't think Traxxas' cars would even be what they are today. People find something they like, and if it's popular, it winds up getting incorporated into the OE setup (the E-Revo Brushless I think is a good example of this )


ANyways, thanks for jumping in here, and thanks for the awesome truck! I fully love my Summit after having put the MMM in and wouldn't have it any other way

P.S.,, a very large portion of my driving is infact slow-speed crawling (I've actually kept my Canyon AT tires on it too, those things are awesome crawl tires).
What I like is that I can stick two 3s 5000mAh LiPo batteries in it and run them in parallel (3s2p for 10,000mAh) and get 2 hours or more run time out of it when I take it hiking up into the mountains. This is another beauty of a brushless system which I think gets overlooked rather often.

[Bakushan]

[Grumpa Tom]

Our guys believe in keeping the "soul" of a vehicle the way it was originally engineered.

Me too. It works as intended that way.

[quadiak]

No misinformation here.... We've tried just about every combination of products available to the public (and some which are not). And why not... After all, we do have a pretty big parts bin to select from..

Our guys believe in keeping the "soul" of a vehicle the way it was originally engineered. Summit is a slow speed crawling torque monster - not an ideal pallete for a high power brushless system. It's not an issue of durability, the parts were engineered to take the power. It's just so much power that it distracts you from what we wanted the Summit to be. With that said, you can tune it down, use less voltage, or adjust the truck to behave like a crawler if you still want to use MMM power. If you want to turn your Summit into a speed demon, there are parts you can put on it for that too.

Its a hobby, its all about experimentation.

+1000 - I so agree with this guy

[Bakushan]

I think one aspect of the hobby is getting it to work "not as intended".

One could make the argument that I should have bought a ERBE instead of a summit, but I wanted the summit for the size. When I started running it I realized what I didnt like, the lack of speed and the battery life. So, I changed things and now i am VERY happy with the truck. I am sure I will break things, and I am sure my life-span wont be the same as someone who remains stock. But thats the whole idea, being different, experimenting, and doing what you think is cool for you. No-one is going to stop you from doing what you want to your own truck!

I am sure if I showed the guys at traxxas what my MMM Summit can do, they would say "More power to ya buddy!" and wish me well. Sure, they know that I am using the truck beyond its original design specs, but who really cares anyways? You can put small tires on it to, change the shell mounts and make it into a E-REVO if you really wanted to. Just leave the diffs unlocked and in high, and your good to go. Unlike the ERBE, the summit gives you the option to change to either "mode" you like with a tire-change and voltage swap.

[quadiak]

I think one aspect of the hobby is getting it to work "not as intended".

One could make the argument that I should have bought a ERBE instead of a summit, but I wanted the summit for the size. When I started running it I realized what I didnt like, the lack of speed and the battery life. So, I changed things and now i am VERY happy with the truck. I am sure I will break things, and I am sure my life-span wont be the same as someone who remains stock. But thats the whole idea, being different, experimenting, and doing what you think is cool for you. No-one is going to stop you from doing what you want to your own truck!

I am sure if I showed the guys at traxxas what my MMM Summit can do, they would say "More power to ya buddy!" and wish me well. Sure, they know that I am using the truck beyond its original design specs, but who really cares anyways? You can put small tires on it to, change the shell mounts and make it into a E-REVO if you really wanted to. Just leave the diffs unlocked and in high, and your good to go. Unlike the ERBE, the summit gives you the option to change to either "mode" you like with a tire-change and voltage swap.

I'm sort of with you Bakushan, except a few more pieces than just tires need to be changed to make a Summit anywhere near competition for an ERBE, things like P2 rockers, Shed another 2 Lbs, add a sway(to both).

Personally I like where you are going with your machine. more power, bigger tires, that stuff is all good, as long as you drop the illusion it will ever compete with a ERBE.

Its like these weirdos that lower Escalades and put on 24" wheels with rubber band tires. those dummies should have bought a corvette to begin with,

For my Summit and the way I abuse it, I might as well put in a grenade as a MMM, I simply want to hit 30 MPH and stay water proof. Maybe get rid of the Ugly 1982 jeep cherokee body while I'm at it, and I would like it to be a much more competent rock crawler than it was stock. but like we are saying it's all personal preference. I will someday buy an ERBE, cause I don't want to take my Summit beyond doing the things I like it to do.

[BAC5.2]

I want a sensored brushless Summit simply so I can keep the "soul" in the truck. Low gear, locked, and a smooth trigger makes it a crawl beast. High gear, unlocked, heavy finger and different tires make it a speed demon. Not direct ERBE competition, but anything hitting the 50mph mark is plenty fast.

I don't really care about waterproof. I got tired of that PDQ after cleaning my MERV over the winter.

[Jakey]

I use my Summit primarily for trail bashing / crawling and for that it works very well right out of the box. So far my only mods have been hard-wiring the stock motor and changing the connectors to Deans (not that is anything wrong with Traxxas connectors, but all my other RC vehicles and chargers use Deans) I also lowered the body approximately 3/8", geared the truck down 1 tooth on the pinion gear and tried experimenting with different light cuts on the tires for crawling traction. Other than the changes noted, the truck is completely stock and I truly enjoy it that way. If someone want to change theirs, that is great; that's part of the beauty of this hobby, the open creativity it invites.

[noir522]

OK back to the Original Post - Summit with the MMM

-ERBE run 18/62 gearing many folks here say that with the larger tires 18/68 would do the trick
-Castle continously releases software updates for the MMM. The latest edition is supposed to have smoothed out the low end - ie less cogging/stuttering and better crawling ability
-NOT ENOUGH LOW END??? Low end torque is what electric (especially bushless) is ALL about. Ask the ERBE guys. What usually breaks their diffs (and other parts) is not the extreme high speed but the brutal take-offs from a stand still, which is why shimming and the slipper adjustment is critical. Lack of low end torque is never a question in electrics (see nitro). And if you want more torque just shift into low gear or install a smaller pinion.

-waterproofness - see youtube (MMM waterproof squirrelrod) there are at least 5 videos with guys running waterproofed MMM

[jamann]

No misinformation here.... We've tried just about every combination of products available to the public (and some which are not). And why not... After all, we do have a pretty big parts bin to select from..

Our guys believe in keeping the "soul" of a vehicle the way it was originally engineered. Summit is a slow speed crawling torque monster - not an ideal pallete for a high power brushless system. It's not an issue of durability, the parts were engineered to take the power. It's just so much power that it distracts you from what we wanted the Summit to be. With that said, you can tune it down, use less voltage, or adjust the truck to behave like a crawler if you still want to use MMM power. If you want to turn your Summit into a speed demon, there are parts you can put on it for that too.

Its a hobby, its all about experimentation.

Dear traxxas,When should we expect that 6s capable waterproof brushless esc.Like the one in the new boat that would make everyone very happy. guy's like Quadiak and myself and others I'm sure.who don't want a jet truck could just use less voltage.But have the absolutely awesome service and quality traxxas is known for